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Cthulhudrew

First Post
Like a few others, I thought it was pretty apparent that Spike was going to get his soul back from the first scene where he leaves Sunnydale on his motorcycle, and was watching closely to see how the writers played the whole thing out as well. That being said, here's my take on the quotes that were given about the object of Spike's quest:

Originally posted by Wayside

SPIKE
What have I done?
(then)
Why didn't I do it? What has she
done to me?

(Why didn’t he do it? Why didn’t he rape her?)

The incident has him questioning his very nature, something he hasn't had to do in centuries. He's existed as a vampire for a long time now, a sentiment he again expresses here:

SPIKE
Everything used to be so clear.
Slayer. Vampire. Vampire kills
Slayer, sucks her dry, picks his
teeth with her bones.

SPIKE
That's how it's always been. I've
tasted the life of two Slayers. But
with Buffy...
(hating himself)
This isn't the way it's supposed to
be. It's the chip. Steel and wires
and silicon. It won't let me be a
monster. And I can't be a man. I'm
nothing.


See, he's not supposed to feel things like "remorse" for attacking humans. Even when the chip stopped him from attacking them by inflicting him with pain, it was just a physiological reaction, not an emotional/mental one. Like shocking a rat when it goes the wrong direction. He didn't attack people because he knew it would hurt, not because he gave a rat's behind about them.

Except when he nearly raped Buffy. Now he's feeling pain that isn't and wasn't generated by the chip. If the chip worked with her, he *might* be able to rationalize his feelings as aftereffects of the shocking, but it doesn't. There's something else going on. But he's just a soulless demon, right? Why should it matter to him? He's a monster, as all of the Scoobies (including Buffy) are so keen on reminding him. Not a man.

SPIKE
The chip. Little Jiminy Cricket,
gnawing bits and chunks.
Spike puts his fingers to his heads probing harshly as if he's going to gouge the chip out with his bare hands. Clem eyes him with concern.

(Ambiguous? I think not)

No argument there. He's convinced (at least at this point) that the chip is the source of his troubles. That if he is able to remove the chip, the status quo will return, and the shades of grey that have arisen between him and Buffy will be black and white once more.

SPIKE
She thinks she knows me. She thinks
she knows who I am. What I'm capable
of. She has no idea. I wasn't always
this way. It won't be easy, but I
can be like I was. Before they
castrated me. Before...
(a beat)
Then she'll see who I really am.

(If they had just left out the castration remark, this could be ambiguous, but it isn’t. It’s referring to the chip. There’s no room for interpretation).


There's plenty of room for interpretation. Yes, the castration remark is referring to the chip, and at this point, Spike believes that removing it will solve his problems.

But there's that little (beat) remark. A beat indicates (traditionally, in the world of theatrics) a shift in the character's thought process. A change from what has been occurring previously. In this case, it seems pretty apparent to me that his remarks about "be(ing) like I was", while in reference to removing the chip, have actually prompted another thought in Spike's head- one which has led him to the idea of being like he was *even before the chip*.

He's just had the revelation of getting himself a soul.
 

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John Crichton

First Post
Vocenoctum said:
There's also always the chance that Spike didn't know what he was going to prove when he went off. :)
Spike went somewhere, and fought through all these trials and got his soul. All that really prove's is that Angel is too lazy to seek a more permenant solution to his Curse. :)
Angel? Lazy about the soul thing? Is he supposed to get another soul? I still hold firm that Spike did not go searching for his soul. But that aside there is a big difference between Spike spending a bit of time in a cave to Angel's eternal torment... I mean it IS a curse after all. :)
 

Vocenoctum

First Post
John Crichton said:
Angel? Lazy about the soul thing? Is he supposed to get another soul? I still hold firm that Spike did not go searching for his soul. But that aside there is a big difference between Spike spending a bit of time in a cave to Angel's eternal torment... I mean it IS a curse after all. :)

Right, but Spike's isn't a curse.

Angel knows he's a ticking time bomb of Angelus, but doesn't seek a solution, other than No Buffy Nookie.
He's lazy :)
 

CCamfield

First Post
Cthulhudrew said:

But there's that little (beat) remark. A beat indicates (traditionally, in the world of theatrics) a shift in the character's thought process. A change from what has been occurring previously. In this case, it seems pretty apparent to me that his remarks about "be(ing) like I was", while in reference to removing the chip, have actually prompted another thought in Spike's head- one which has led him to the idea of being like he was *even before the chip*.

Have to agree with you. I think you snipped one of the interesting relevant bits of dialogue, though:

Clem gives him an encouraging pat on the shoulder.

CLEM
Hey. Come on now, Mr. Negative. You
never know what's just around the
corner. Things change.

Spike considers that, his wheels turning.

SPIKE
They do.
(a beat)
If you make them.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Vocenoctum said:
Angel knows he's a ticking time bomb of Angelus, but doesn't seek a solution, other than No Buffy Nookie.

Actually, he is currently on the path of a solution. He's been given a prophecy that if a vampire with a soul redeems himself, he becomes human.

Needless to say, trying to do an end run around a curse your former self deserved to get Buffy Nookie is contrary to redemption. Seeking another solution makes his current solution more difficult to attain.
 

dravot

First Post
Vocenoctum said:


Right, but Spike's isn't a curse.

Angel knows he's a ticking time bomb of Angelus, but doesn't seek a solution, other than No Buffy Nookie.
He's lazy :)

Feh. You try avoiding Buffy Nookie after having sampled the wares, and then see how lazy you feel. :p
 

Wayside

Explorer
Cthulhudrew said:
There's plenty of room for interpretation. Yes, the castration remark is referring to the chip, and at this point, Spike believes that removing it will solve his problems.

But there's that little (beat) remark. A beat indicates (traditionally, in the world of theatrics) a shift in the character's thought process.

You'd think it was something besides a simple pause to guide the actors (for which they'd want to write 'pause', wouldn't they?), but alas in Buffy scripts that's all it is. They never use (pause). (Beat) is the direction of choice. Take a look at any script, you'll find it turns up dozens of times, 99% free of any shift in a character's train of thought.

I suppose they meant to show Spike's foot in a mirror in that episode (Seeing Red) too. Silly me, I thought it was a mistake. But of course they were just throwing me off the scent--Spike had a soul all along and we're all just inattentive idiots! ;)

Haha seriousy though I thought of you guys today. The episode Restless was on FX, and while Buffy was talking to Tara (speaking for the First Slayer) she says 'The Slayer?' and Tara hits her back 'The First', and it struck me: obviously she was referring us to many seasons in the future, since we know the First's assault was linked to some weakness in the Slayer line. She never actually says 'The First Slayer'... just the 'the First.' Careful ambiguous scheming by the writers to fool us? I think so. So I laughed at that. Well, that and also because that's the episode Crothian's .sig is from. Gotta love that cheese guy. :D
 

zyzzyr

First Post
I had thought that it plays out like this:

The character of Spike wants the chip removed. He also, subconsciously, wants to be able to love Buffy the way she deserves to be loved. He travels to Africa to get the chip removed. When he passes the demon's tests, the demon sees his subconscious desire for love, which is greater than his desire to punish, and so gives him back his soul instead of removing the chip.

Once Spike is "ensouled", he realizes why he was given his soul, and not chip-free instead. He attributes his actions to a love of Buffy.

The writers, of course, absolutely intended to give his soul to him, every step of the way. However, what is being attributed as misdirection (that is, the writers indicating one thing while the truth is different), I would instead attribute to foreshadowing.

So, to recap: Spike wanted chip removed, writers intended ensouling. Foreshadowing in Spike's dialogue might have tipped off some.
 

John Crichton

First Post
zyzzyr said:
I had thought that it plays out like this:

The character of Spike wants the chip removed. He also, subconsciously, wants to be able to love Buffy the way she deserves to be loved. He travels to Africa to get the chip removed. When he passes the demon's tests, the demon sees his subconscious desire for love, which is greater than his desire to punish, and so gives him back his soul instead of removing the chip.

Once Spike is "ensouled", he realizes why he was given his soul, and not chip-free instead. He attributes his actions to a love of Buffy.

The writers, of course, absolutely intended to give his soul to him, every step of the way. However, what is being attributed as misdirection (that is, the writers indicating one thing while the truth is different), I would instead attribute to foreshadowing.

So, to recap: Spike wanted chip removed, writers intended ensouling. Foreshadowing in Spike's dialogue might have tipped off some.
Well said. I agree.

To add, I believe that the show has always embraced a "you can't get something for nothing" attitude. So they did make Spike the way he was by giving him back his soul but they also knew it would probably drive him mad (which it did) and cause more pain to him than pleasure as souless beings aren't hurt nearly as badly by emotions as souled ones are. It was both a blessing and a curse.
 

John Crichton said:
Well said. I agree.

To add, I believe that the show has always embraced a "you can't get something for nothing" attitude. So they did make Spike the way he was by giving him back his soul but they also knew it would probably drive him mad (which it did) and cause more pain to him than pleasure as souless beings aren't hurt nearly as badly by emotions as souled ones are. It was both a blessing and a curse.

I like that explanantion too. It explains the insanity pretty well, as Spike couldn't have been prepared for the flood of emotions and guilt having a soul would entail. This left him nice and weakened for the First to exploit.
 

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