Animate Dead on Multiple Spell Lists

[HoboGod]

Suppose I have a necromancer PC, Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 4, with the Practiced Spellcaster feat. In terms of caster level, I have Wizard 10/Cleric 7. However, I gain access to the Animate Dead spell from both Wizard and Cleric spell lists. If I may control 4 per caster level hitdice of undead made with this spell, may I control them with both my Wizard caster level and my Cleric caster level? In other words, can this PC control 68 HD worth of undead or only 40 HD worth of undead?

 

[HoboGod]

More than 6 hours with no reply, not too common around here. Go figure I ask a question that people don't wanna touch with a 60' pole. *sigh* I shall rephrase my question into an open debate.

Upon research, I don't blame people for overlooking this thread. This is a question that muddles the line between rules as written and rules as interpreted. The PHB entry for Animate Dead says "No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level." If Animate Dead were to be kind and say per hit dice, or per class levels, or per highest arcane/divine class level with access to Animate Dead, then there would be no debate. However, they chose to say per caster level. Caster level is usually class dependent. If I cast fireball using a sorcerer spell slot of a Wizard 10/Sorcerer 9, I don't consider the wizard's caster level whatsoever, even if he knows fireball, too. When I cast as a Wizard, it's 10d6, when I cast as a Sorcerer, it's 9d6. Sorcerer gets no penalty for Wizard knowing Fireball and visa versa because their spells are independent of each other.

It's not fair to compare Animate Dead to Fireball, however. The effects of Fireball don't accumulate indefinitely with every casting. Perhaps a Delayed Fireball with Time Stop, but not the way Animate Dead is designed. However, there is no getting around the question of "How?" Animate Dead is among the few spells which caster level functions outside of it's effect. I've looked in both the Caster Level section and the Multiclass section to find little-to-no relevant information on if something that normally has no opportunity to stack can stack given rare opportunity.

The only place which suggests that this couldn't stack is in the Combining Magical Effects section:

Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies. For example, if a character takes a –4 penalty to Strength from a ray of enfeeblement spell and then receives a second ray of enfeeblement spell that applies a –6 penalty, he or she takes only the –6 penalty. Both spells are still operating on the character, however. If one ray of enfeeblement spell is dispelled or its duration runs out, the other spell remains in effect, assuming that its duration has not yet expired.

If max controllable undead can be compared to duration, or Animate Dead being a spell that affects the user rather than the animated corpses, then the highest max controllable undead would be the only one that counts. It's so confusing! Somebody give some input before I cry....

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm guessing that you need to use the class level of the class through which you have just cast the spell. IOW, if you cast it as a Cleric, you control as a Cleric. If you cast it as a Wizard, you control as a Wizard.

I say this because there are classes out there that allow you to mix & match your spells & effects, saying to me that this is a change from the normal rule.

 

[jefgorbach]

Suppose I have a necromancer PC, Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 4, with the Practiced Spellcaster feat. In terms of caster level, I have Wizard 10/Cleric 7. However, I gain access to the Animate Dead spell from both Wizard and Cleric spell lists. If I may control 4 per caster level hitdice of undead made with this spell, may I control them with both my Wizard caster level and my Cleric caster level? In other words, can this PC control 68 HD worth of undead or only 40 HD worth of undead?

I'm sure others will disagree, but it seems like you've got two options, depending on your style:

1. liable magic - he's experienced with as an arcane caster so controls (4x17 undead). However his deity, recognizing the value of the spell, likewise answers the spell request for an additional (4x3) ... allowing him to control upto 80 hd.

2. highest caster level - per above, however his deity refuses the request feeling no single individual could handle such responsibility, so limits his control to the most controllable using either class singularly (68hd); regardless of whether he casts arcanely or divinely.

3. Arcane and Divine magic are fundamentally different to such an extent that although the game mechanics appear on both the Arcane and Divine lists, each are completely separate spells. However doing so effectively duplicates option #1 since there would be no valid reason he couldn't cast it divinely, then immediately recast it arcanely (since the underlying magics providing the control would neither stack nor overlap).

 

[Deset Gled]

I'm guessing that you need to use the class level of the class through which you have just cast the spell. IOW, if you cast it as a Cleric, you control as a Cleric. If you cast it as a Wizard, you control as a Wizard.

That's exactly how I would handle it, with the caveat that you can only have one casting active at once (due to stacking effects rules).

 

[HoboGod]

The stacking rules aren't too specific to this, though. Would casting Summon Monster I apply to stacking rules, too? If I used that spell to summon a Celestial Dog, could I not use that spell to summon another monster until the first spell ended? And then, if someone else casted Summon Monster I to summon a creature, would that not also apply to stacking rules? Bear's Strength certainly can't stack that way. Would that mean to cast the spell, they must wait until someone else's summoned monster is gone? That would also greatly muddle Animate Dead to the point that stacking simply COULDN'T apply. Who or what is the target of Summon Monster I and Animate Dead for which stacking is forbidden? If two characters with the same spell can cast the spell and their abilities logically stack, then one character casting as two classes shouldn't be treated differently.

Maybe I'm being too zealous, here. Maybe my desire to see Mystic Theurge good for something is clouding my judgment. As it stands, a full Wizard with the Leadership Feat (Cleric cohort) roflstomps all 10 levels of Mystic Theurge. However, zeal or no zeal, I'd like a coherent explanation of the rules for stacking and how it applies to Animate Dead.

 

[jefgorbach]

Animate Dead is limited to the available corpses rendering Stacking moot because outlying village simply wont have many suitable corpses available for animation whereas major communities like Waterdeep/etc surely have precautions in place to deter/prevent wide-scale animation. Granted it would work on a recent battlefield. However regardless of source, the locals are guaranteed to notice a massive animation and become very very hostile (with suitable repercussions).

Consequently the only place I really see the spell's full 68hd potential coming into play (if ever) would be during that once-in-a-life Epic-level dungeon crawl providing both the numbers and isolation to cast the spell to its full effect -- in which case having the additional numbers would make good story telling. (IE keeping a small portion of Orcus's provided troops animated during the planar assault portion of the Savage Tide comes to mind)

 

[Deset Gled]

The stacking rules aren't too specific to this, though. Would casting Summon Monster I apply to stacking rules, too? If I used that spell to summon a Celestial Dog, could I not use that spell to summon another monster until the first spell ended? And then, if someone else casted Summon Monster I to summon a creature, would that not also apply to stacking rules?

...

Who or what is the target of Summon Monster I and Animate Dead for which stacking is forbidden?

I think you are making things much more complicated than they really are. You never need to worry about Summon Monster X and Animate Dead stacking, because they are different effects (one summons a monster(s), the other allows you to control a specific amount of undead).

Likewise, there are no issues if a different character casts Animate Dead. Stacking of these effects is based on "you", i.e the caster. You are never limited in the amount of HD of undead you can control because of another character casting the spell.

 

[rgard]

I'm guessing that you need to use the class level of the class through which you have just cast the spell. IOW, if you cast it as a Cleric, you control as a Cleric. If you cast it as a Wizard, you control as a Wizard.

I say this because there are classes out there that allow you to mix & match your spells & effects, saying to me that this is a change from the normal rule.

I'm with Danny on this one. I'll put my thinking cap on and see if I can't come up with an alternate class feature or feat that would help in this situation.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[pawsplay]

The situation is a little strange. Not only is there a clear answer to this, there isn't even a clear answer on what happens when you animate some undead in a desecrated area and some outside a desecrated area. Since each class gives you a separate caster level, I think it's probably fair to say each one has its own HD total.