another rpg industry doomsday article (merged: all 3 "Mishler Rant" threads)

[rounser]

If you're going to stand up and tell me that the way I /play/ 4e is irrelevant, and all that matters is the way it's designed, then I would like it if you'd apply the same critical lens to your own favorite edition.

I don't care about the way you play 4E. 4E as a whole is irrelevant to me, except insofar as it is taking up space as to what currently passes for in-print D&D, and what it bodes for the future of the game.

 

[ggroy]

The problem with this theory is you can discount everyone not in the industry because they don't have access to actual numbers, everyone who left the industry as disgruntled and everyone in the industry because they will be putting positive spin on it. No one can give real relevant, accurate facts, so we can spin any argument we want.

At some point you need to trust that someone isn't blowing smoke or walk away from the discussion because it can't be constructive.

PR and propaganda are all about blowing smoke. Punditry is all about blowing smoke and re-blowing somebody else's smoke.

The final decisions are obviously based on what the financial books look like. If a product or service turns out to be a flop, I'm not going to putting any more money into further development. No use in throwing more money into a black hole.

 

[kenmarable]

{thread whiplash}
Wow! We've gone from "pulling guesses out of our... butts" about what the gaming industry will be in 20 years to trying to divine the intentions of Gygax when he created the game over 35 years ago (not to mention discussing the meaning of an "inch") - all in the same thread!

Zowie!

 

[ggroy]

trying to divine the intentions of Gygax when he created the game over 35 years ago

Bring on the Ouija board.

 

[coyote6]

Technically, I think this is becoming a replay of a thread from last week. Or the week before that. Or both. In which, IIRC, no one was persuaded of anything, except maybe that "hey, people play the game in various different ways, now and in the past." Add doses of "But mostly they play[ed] like me!" to taste.

 

[ggroy]

Technically, I think this is becoming a replay of a thread from last week. Or the week before that. Or both. In which, IIRC, no one was persuaded of anything, except maybe that "hey, people play the game in various different ways, now and in the past." Add doses of "But mostly they play[ed] like me!" to taste.

The lowest common denominator.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

I don't see the refutation, here. It's trading off of a name, yes I agree. But the game design has arguably changed quite dramatically from including a broad church of play styles to a rather narrow niche (e.g. long gamist tactical combats based on miniatures). It's a testament to the power of that name that the game still sees some success regardless, IMO. To reverse the scenario as a rhetorical question, would 4E have sunk without a trace without that name to bouy it?

The church of play styles I would agree was broad for 3.5E, but I'd say at least 80% fell into casual generic action-fantasy with an emphasis on combat, with length(3.5E was similarly slow), minis focus(3.5E was nearly as minis focused), and gamism as non-handicaps. D&D has always been the casual hack and slash game of choice.

Simulationists, OGL-worshippers, noncombat, anti-miniatures, are all small high strung minorities, dwarfed by the big picture.

I don't deny that 4E has excluded some playstyles with prejudice. Its still broad enough to cover 80% of the D&D people were playing during 3.5E, and 4E covers that 80% better than 3.5E did and has more appeal to new players.

 

[Thanlis]

I don't care about the way you play 4E. 4E as a whole is irrelevant to me, except insofar as it is taking up space as to what currently passes for in-print D&D, and what it bodes for the future of the game.

Yes. And your assumptions about what it bodes for the future of the game all assume that 4e players are incapable of making the same sort of play adjustments that original D&D players made in practice.

This is probably a fruitless conversation -- we've gone back and forth a couple of times now and you're carefully refusing to notice page 25 of Underworld & Wilderness Adventures. But hey, everyone else can remember those special words the next time someone claims OD&D wasn't written as a miniatures game:

PLAYING AREA:
Paper counters and a hexagon or staggered-square playing board should be used in those cases where it is not possible to use miniature figures. It is also necessary that height be noted by use of a counter. Counters numbered in 1" increments can be prepared, and the appropriate one be placed with the unit when the turn is finished, thus indicating height in inches.

And everyone else should remember that in practice? A lot of people, including Gygax, ignored that "should" and that "necessary". Because actual play always differs from the rules.

 

[Umbran]

Simulationists, OGL-worshippers, noncombat, anti-miniatures, are all small high strung minorities, dwarfed by the big picture.

The insulting tone seen in this post was not necessary. It has earned a thread-ban. Please don't respond in kind, or you shall share that fate.

 

[malraux]

"Those Damn Kids" -- Name one other era in history when schools had to be guarded by armed guards, drug-sniffing hounds, and metal detectors. Name one other advanced state in the world where a majority of the "students" in the schools can not identify their own state on a map. Name one other advanced state in the world where the functional literacy of its youngest cadre is so poor. Name one other state in the world, other than maybe Somalia, where the teachers often have to fear the students. Anyone who looks at the crop of youth today as a whole, and does not see the sea change that has occured in the last 20 years, is fooling themselves.

This is somewhat unrelated to everything else, but is a pet peeve of mine. Kids today are smarter than they were a few decades ago, and kids a few decades ago were smarter than their elders. The Flynn effect is pretty clear and unmistakable. While it might appear that kids are getting dumber, in many cases what is happening is that the educational system is bringing in more and more of the kids who wouldn't have had as much education in times past.

On the specifics. Lets see, armed guards, drug hounds and metal detectors were in place in the 90s. Moreover, here are some military units in a school, not just some rent a cops.

Places where teachers fear the students: Time Line of Worldwide School Shootings — Infoplease.com Registering "fear" of students is pretty hard. Certainly big events like school shootings are not limited to the US. And really the big difference is that this sort of violence moved into the "good" schools, not that it hasn't always been around. Heck, right now it looks like juvenile violence crime is at a relative low point: Trends

Literacy rates: Functional illiteracy for the youngest cadre seems like you don't know what you are talking about. Functional illiteracy is an adult issue, not a young child issue.