Any expeerience with Injury Cards in play?

[Garthanos]

Yeah, I would call that narrative consequences in general.

Basically any effect that is till end of this encounter is mechanically indistinguishable... shrug there is a prejudice against allowing martial its due and so many of the mage supremacists want to claim realism but really allowing the hero to impair enemies with indefinite effects is even more martial and realistic...

The mage controller is allowed some pretty extreme effects in terms of moving the enemy so martial controllers could be better at bloody impairing them.

 

[Garthanos]

Or perhaps the Rogue controller would...

 

[Garthanos]

Heck I am looking at Warlord controllers able to sometimes browbeat or litterally beat enemies into allies ... I mean really.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Basically any effect that is till end of this encounter is mechanically indistinguishable... shrug there is a prejudice against allowing martial its due and so many of the mage supremacists want to claim realism but really allowing the hero to impair enemies with indefinite effects is even more martial and realistic...

The mage controller is allowed some pretty extreme effects in terms of moving the enemy so martial controllers could be better at bloody impairing them.

Well, in my own game I've changed things a bit. You don't really get conditions unless you unleash something like a daily, and then its going to last to the end of the fight. You can do certain things, like push, pull, slide, knock prone, or have some sort of 'instantaneous effect' like changing a defense number until a power is resolved (IE like Shield) or things like that, but I've LARGELY eschewed the 'plethora of conditions' style of 4e itself. If you want to do that sort of stuff, you use a daily, and then its going to last. Dailies are a big deal, they tend to have a large impact. Less different powers and interactions flying around, but they're more impactful when they do.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Heck I am looking at Warlord controllers able to sometimes browbeat or litterally beat enemies into allies ... I mean really.

Yes, and in my game's scheme, that isn't so bad. In 4e it would be crazy to have a power that was like "dominate this guy UEO encounter" but I kinda decided I hated tracking durations and fiddling with saves all the time, so that's blinkin what you do!

Now, if you end up with a PC being in that state, well, they have VPs and they can burn them to undo things. Maybe you have to accept some lesser condition like 'dazed' but at least you ain't hackin' on Fred and Charlie no more! (Yes, that's a bonus Fineous Fingers reference for anyone that is old enough to get it).

 

[Garthanos]

Yes, and in my game's scheme, that isn't so bad. In 4e it would be crazy to have a power that was like "dominate this guy UEO encounter"

Well it has a lot of limits and it is a level 7 daily too you have to have defeated them really and they have become a minion with some innadequate sense of self preservation.

I am considering for peoples delicate sensibilities about what martial power can do mentioning tier based limits like at heroic tier you can only do this to 1 type of adversary. (1 or 2 below depending on your characters personality and other abilities)

1. a sentient you can speak the language of. (language commonality drops in paragon)
2. animal or beast not in category 1
3. undead who were formally the above *also somewhat arbitrarily excluded, **no convincing vampires that your blood of kings is so wonderful as to follow you till paragon sheesh
4. a demon (excluded arbitrarily from number 1 because I said so.)

Or something like that LOL

Then the power is a bit like the clerics powers over undead although I guess the Cleric because he likely has a lot of powers that affect things in this way needs feats to open them up to affecting other things. Clerics of my gameworld normally affect Demons because undead are very rare.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well it has a lot of limits and it is a level 7 daily too you have to have defeated them really and they have become a minion with some innadequate sense of self preservation.

I am considering for peoples delicate sensibilities about what martial power can do mentioning tier based limits like at heroic tier you can only do this to 1 type of adversary. (1 or 2 below depending on your characters personality and other abilities)

1. a sentient you can speak the language of. (language commonality drops in paragon)
2. animal or beast not in category 1
3. undead who were formally the above *also somewhat arbitrarily excluded, **no convincing vampires that your blood of kings is so wonderful as to follow you till paragon sheesh
4. a demon (excluded arbitrarily from number 1 because I said so.)

Or something like that LOL

Then the power is a bit like the clerics powers over undead although I guess the Cleric because he likely has a lot of powers that affect things in this way needs feats to open them up to affecting other things. Clerics of my gameworld normally affect Demons because undead are very rare.

Of course the nut of the issue with Martial is "Well, if its basically 'mundane' then why can't ANYONE try to do it?" and of course intimidating/cajoling/convincing people to follow you certainly SEEMS relatively mundane (though I admit that it can verge on the fantastic, but its pretty unclear exactly where the line is, depending on the personalities and motivations involved for instance).

This kind of power definitely brings out that issue! I think when you start getting into the more fantastical kinds of creatures and things, then its actually LESS problematic. Ordinary people don't convince tigers to obey them, nor vampires, and certainly not demons!

Frankly, I'd say that if your warlord can defeat something, then why not let them turn it into an ally? Regardless of the problematic mundanity aspect, the heck with it! You're just that good! Now, the question is more what sort of a thing is this new ally? Should it be a minion? How do you take account of its unique features as a creature? What about if you manage to use this power on a solo? There's a few things to be worked out here, and there's always the 'CaGI issue' (is it always narratively plausible, yet we don't want to apply such tests to powers in general).

Anyway, I think answers are possible, certainly less mechanistically thorough versions of D&D have managed to navigate these sorts of questions at times. This kind of a class might not be universally appropriate in the minds of all 4e advocates is all. OTOH it would probably work OK in my game, where I focus more on narrative plausibility and then build mechanically balanced powers around that (with the understanding that the GM will have to be sensitive to the possibilities of nerfing one or another PC if they play against their narrative elements too much, like the old 3.5 'rogues are no good against undead' thing).

 

[Garthanos]

Of course the nut of the issue with Martial is "Well, if its basically 'mundane' then why can't ANYONE try to do it?" and of course intimidating/cajoling/convincing people to follow you certainly SEEMS relatively mundane (though I admit that it can verge on the fantastic, but its pretty unclear exactly where the line is, depending on the personalities and motivations involved for instance).

intimidation skill only gets you so far... besides mordred ends up able to use 1/3 your supposed allies against you.... and the rest run off with lancelot who did the real beat down.

This kind of power definitely brings out that issue! I think when you start getting into the more fantastical kinds of creatures and things, then its actually LESS problematic. Ordinary people don't convince tigers to obey them, nor vampires, and certainly not demons!

Frankly, I'd say that if your warlord can defeat something, then why not let them turn it into an ally? Regardless of the problematic mundanity aspect, the heck with it! You're just that good!

or we might be looking at Conscripting an enemy as a Diplomacy extreme difficulty effect analog to to the Intimidation to finish the fight.

Now, the question is more what sort of a thing is this new ally? Should it be a minion?

They are no longer a central agent in the story... minion seems appropriate

There was a power in the Shadow school that allowed one to make a minion of an adversary and I paterned it after that one...
The power was a level 7 daily it used the domination mechanic but not sure that is what is reallyl wanted...

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

There was a power in the Shadow school that allowed one to make a minion of an adversary and I paterned it after that one...
The power was a level 7 daily it used the domination mechanic but not sure that is what is reallyl wanted...

Yeah, IIRC that did pass mechanical muster. I don't recall how they derived stats for the minion, but any I'm sure there's some way. Truthfully in 4e's concept of things its just as well to have the power assign all that as it sees fit, there's no objectively right value for a character's AC for instance...

 

[Garthanos]

Yeah, IIRC that did pass mechanical muster. I don't recall how they derived stats for the minion, but any I'm sure there's some way. Truthfully in 4e's concept of things its just as well to have the power assign all that as it sees fit, there's no objectively right value for a character's AC for instance...

It was actually a level 5 power I just verified...

I flavored the enemy turned ally as a bit of a Zealot hence the defense penalty (...in the power however they specified the undead couldnt heal0