D&D 3E/3.5 Any good Homebrew Monk Variants? [3.5e]

[StreamOfTheSky]

OP: I've long considered a houserule inspired by the Snap Kick feat whereby the monk's flurry of blows becomes extra attacks he can apply to ANY attack action on his turn. Just take the penalty (assuming you're low level and have one), and BAMF! Flurry on a charge. Flurry on a spring attack. Flurry on a readied action attack! Beware the monk who took the feats to make longspear a special monk weapon! In any of those cases, the monk can string on his extra flurry attacks, using unarmed strikes or one of the special monk weapons. Allows the monk to fullfill his mobile combatant niche without the conflicting interest of wanting to stand still to full attack with flurry. If someone actually plays a monk my next game, I'm going to see how it works.

The entire concept of the monk is dumb IMO, in as much as the guy is asking to balanced with his bare hands against 40' long dragons and guys with magic swords in magic armor. It's just not going to happen, and its kind of unreasonable to imagine it happening both for 'realism' reasons and game balance reasons (a monk actually balanced naked against a fighter with the best equipment would be no balance at all, since not needing equipment itself represents a huge advantage).

Which is why the monk would not be naked. He would have gear equal in value to the Fighter's, just instead of armor, he has bracers of armor. On top of the Fighter's +str, dex, and con items, the monk's rocking +wisdom. And so on... And he should be able to put up an even fight in that case. Finally, I suggest you click the bottom link in my sig. A monk is not fighting 40 ft long dragons at low levels, and level 6+, characters have exceeded the bounds of human limit, so I really don't care if he can fly kick an ancient red dragon's head off its neck at that point. No more than I ponder how the fighter's stabbing the dragon to death with a sword of such a size that the dragon uses larger toothpicks.

But, if you want a completely broken powergamer's monk, may I suggest the Oathbound from Monte Cook's 'Unearthed Arcana'/'Arcana Evolved'. I wouldn't introduced it to my campaign, on the grounds that the character ends up with immunities roughly equivalent to that of a lesser diety by 20th level. It still won't bring the damage of other martial classes, it's certainly a 'playable monk'.

Wha???? Oathsworn's one of the weakest classes in that book! How is it broken? What can it do that a Warforged Warblade/Swordsage/Crusader (pick one) couldn't do just as well if not better?

 

[Sylrae]

Only insofar as the rules provide details on how to avoid the negative consequences arising from such actions. The rules provide little guidance with respect to "stunting" as the term is generally understood-- that is, doing something crazy in combat to gain an advantage.

In other words, given the choice between fighting the spider while balancing on two immovable rods or while standing on terra firma, there's no reason to stand on the immovable rods. If you have no choice but to stand on those rods in order to attack the spider, then the best the rules can do for you is tell you how not to fall and break your neck.

Hmm, in regards to that example I agree with you, but that is the sort of thing that can come up regularly (not that specific example), but lots of dangerous in-combat skill applications can come up.

It's a system, not of interesting options, but rather ways to avoid unpleasant consequences. I don't consider that a stunt system.

The closest the rules come to "stunts"-- that is, using a skill to gain a combat advantage-- is Bluff/Feint or Intimidate; both of which have too high an opportunity cost (spend an action for a little benefit). It's worth noting that we expanded the utility of both of these a bit.

Hmm. What about jumping over someone and attacking in mid air? sliding between their legs and attacking them? Both give you the advantage of an attack and moving through the opponents square.

We also added "stunt-like" or "feat-like" analogs for power attack, cleave, combat expertise, etc.

That's because the rules don't adequately encourage such behavior.

But I agree with you that they should, and will further expand such options in a later work.

My approach, however, isn't to focus on any particular skill (which would leave some classes out of the action), but rather on the creativity of the player and what he's willing to risk to gain a reward. (If you search around here on ENworld and elsewhere, you'll find other such "wagering" systems.)

I tend to do something similar. I think the reason it occurs so much in our games, is that when players are doing those things on purpose to gain an advantage (as opposed to just trying not to fall to their death) I tend to give lower DCs to encourage them to be interesting. I dont think I was even doing it on purpose, but thinking about it now I do.

But yeah, the skills should definitely support active combat (I'm keeping the term, I like it, lol. The skills could all definitely use some reworking. Though your wagering system reference could work too.

Wha???? Oathsworn's one of the weakest classes in that book! How is it broken? What can it do that a Warforged Warblade/Swordsage/Crusader (pick one) couldn't do just as well if not better?

I think he doesnt like the big immunities. I'm not a fan of full immunities much either (or any other total absolute). I'd probably allow them, but replace the immunities with something else, even a high resistance.

When it comes to immunities I think it goes like this:

If youre a construct (and most undead), youre immune to poison, disease, etc.
If youre an elemental, youre healed by your element.
Things that don't sleep at all are immune to sleep.

Resistances are OK.

I got this Idea from Frank and K's(I think) rules.

Very little in the way of absolutes. if you cut down on them more, its better.
Fire Giants? No Fire Immunity. But Fire resist 40+ sounds ok.

 

[ValhallaGH]

I'm getting the feeling nobody else does interesting things in combat without magic...

Never fear. Leaping into the rafters and chopping the ropes suspending heavy barrels of water over your enemies was a common tactic in last Friday's session (a Trailblazer game, interestingly enough). Alternatively, jumping onto the barrels to direct their fall onto the enemies rather than onto empty ground. The monk was very happy with her deadly-ninja ways.

Wacky things are semi-covered by the rules. It's more a matter of perspective than anything else. Elevation bonuses, flanking, feinting, and the ubiquitous circumstance bonus all provide guidelines on just how much a stunt should help out. And if you've ever read through the Stunt rules in Iron Heroes (some really lovely concepts in that book that have forever changed and cinematicatized, yes I just made up a word, my games) you'll see the necessary perspective.
And even simpler stunting goodness can be found already prepared (good work to which I have almost no connection).

 

[Voadam]

One of my players that I'm DMing for has insisted on playing a Monk even though he's a powergamer and the class is horrible. The end result is that he has a character that's underpowered compared to the rest of the party even though he's the type of player that is motivated by being the most powerful.

So, does anyone here have a good homebrew variant of for a Monk that works well 3.5e? I'm thinking something along the lines of higher BAB, but any suggestions would be appreciated.

I think going with full BAB would be fine and not make them unbalanced in combat. If you feel it is too much you could go with the suggested trailblazer one of adding in a virtual bonus so their attack bonus equals a full BAB while their iteratives and grapple modifiers etc are the medium BAB rate.

 

[nightdrake66]

I have to disagree and say that anyone who believes the monk class is weak hasn't put any effort into building the character past 10th level. As a primary combatant to that point the monk may be lacking in some situations compared to a fighter but after that point the balance is gone. My preferred class to take is always monk unless I'm just feeling a caster. With flurry, the unarmed damage increase and all the special monk bonuses, the class just begs use. For the cost of one feat (improved natural attack) and 1000 gold (mighty wallop enchanted onto an item) a 20th level monk can deal 6d8 damage with a single unarmed strike, couple that with any weapon enchants (because the monks unarmed strikes are also considered manufactured weapons and can thus be enchanted) and greater flurry and your putting out more damage than the fighter and almost as much if not more than the rogue with a full attack with sneak attack on all hits. Worried about getting hit in combat? Boost your wis and dex as any monk should and use items that a sorcerer or wiz would use. The max ac of unenhanced armor is +9 with +1 max dex right? Bracers of armor, ring of force shield, the full dex bonus and the monk's untyped bonuses to ac more than make up for lack of armor.

 

[Dandu]

That's great.

Meanwhile the hardcore optimizers (people who do in fact spend lots of time on high level characters) will still consider the monk a weak class.

Perhaps we're all wrong though. Maybe the consensus of the Character Optimization forum is skewed; it is possible we've spent too much time making Pun Puns to appreciate our roots.

Would you kindly show me what a good monk at, say, level 20 looks like? I really would be interested in seeing how one build by a man of your capabilities handles himself when facing CR 19+ enemies.

 

[nightdrake66]

Google optimized monk build. Not so hard. In addition one level of shiba protector=+4 attack and damage. But say lower power campaign with starting scores of 16 in dex and wis, low str, say 12 on a human. Monk 12/ shiba protector1. Stunning fist dc 20 and saves all higher than 8. Bab +9/+4, flurry +9/+9/+9/+4. Low str so give him weapon finesse, put 2 stat increases in wis. 9/4 +2 dex=11/6 +4 wis from no thought= +15/+10 so flurry at +15/+15/+15/+10. Imp nat attack, Ring of mighty wallop and a monks belt for 4d8 dam +4 from the wis bonus from no thought/per attack. Movement speed of 60 or 70 feet(can't remember it all) ac 10+2 dex+ 4 wis +2 or 3 monk bonus=18 plus any items. Highest base ac you can get as a human without any magical enhancements is like 24 with a tower shield and no mobility, striking with a weapon that deals 1d10 or 1d12 +7 with a str of 20 and weapon spec at a bonus of 19/14/9 with weapon focus. Plus monks get imp evasion, a ton of immunities and can heal damage=monk level per day. Currently were running a gestalt campaign and my character is 19 levels of monk with other things thrown in so I can give you my current max crit damage since we figured it up after my dm realized just how broken my character is-1700+ dam in one round. Our fighter, sorcerer and disciple of dispater each cap at between 900 to 1200.

 

[Dandu]

Google optimized monk build. Not so hard.

Not so impressive either. Was hoping you'd do better than Sir Giacomo's Joke monk, or the atrocities on D&D wiki.

In addition one level of shiba protector=+4 attack and damage. But say lower power campaign with starting scores of 16 in dex and wis, low str, say 12 on a human. Monk 12/ shiba protector1. Stunning fist dc 20 and saves all higher than 8.

A DC 20 fortitude save at level 13 isn't very useful against many CR 13 enemies like Ice Devils (+15 fortitude save), Galbrezu (+18), Adult Green Dragon (+17), Iron Golems (immune)...

Bab +9/+4, flurry +9/+9/+9/+4. Low str so give him weapon finesse, put 2 stat increases in wis. 9/4 +2 dex=11/6 +4 wis from no thought= +15/+10 so flurry at +15/+15/+15/+10.

To draw on the previous enemies, Ice Devil AC 32, Galbrezu AC 27 (but has Mirror Image at will), Adult Green Dragon AC 27 (but with access to AC improving arcane spells like Mage Armor) Iron Golem AC 30.

You're hitting about half the time at +15, and rarely at +10.

Imp nat attack, Ring of mighty wallop and a monks belt for 4d8 dam +4 from the wis bonus from no thought/per attack.

That's an average of 22 damage per attack, isn't it? Let's see... three attacks hitting about half the time multiplied by average damage equals... 1.5*22=33 damage per round if full attacking.

Ice Devil 147 HP (with Regeneration 5 and DR 10/Good), Galbrezu 174 HP (DR 10/Good; average damage will be lower on this one due to Mirror Image), Adult Green Dragon 230 HP, Iron Golem 129 HP (DR 15/Adamantine).

ac 10+2 dex+ 4 wis +2 or 3 monk bonus=18 plus any items.

Assuming you get +6 to AC from various sources, your AC 24
Full attacks:
Ice Devil: Spear +20/+15/+10 melee (2d6+9/×3 plus slow) and bite +14 melee (2d6+3) and tail +14 melee (3d6+3 plus slow); or 2 claws +19 melee (1d10+6) and bite +14 melee (2d6+3) and tail +14 melee (3d6+3 plus slow) melee (DC 23 fort save vs Slow)
Galbrezu: 2 pincers +20 melee (2d8+10) and 2 claws +18 melee (1d6+5) and bite +18 melee (1d8+5)
Adult Green Dragon: Can't copy an entry directly as the information for full attacks isn't laid out neatly, but it has a bite, two claws, and a tail slap with lots of strength and +20 BAB to back it up.
Iron Golem: 2 slams +23 melee (2d10+11)

Everything is going to hit you on a consistent basis deal more damage to the monk than the monk to it. They have larger reach, so they'll hit the monk before he hits them. I hope the monk has a high Con, because that d8 hit dice isn't going to give him enough HP by itself.

I'm not cherrypicking examples against you (at least not consciously). I just used the d20 SRD's search function to find out what was an appropriate challenge at CR 13. To be fair, Stunning Fist would work against a 12 headed Pyrohydra since its fortitude save is only +13, though since it gets 12 atttacks/round at +17 each for 2d8+6 damage at reach 10, you wouldn't fare well in combat against it either.

Plus monks get imp evasion, a ton of immunities and can heal damage=monk level per day.

The evasion is nice, but the immunities are towards really minor things (no one with a good fortitude save worries about poison or disease at the level you get immunities to them) and the self healing ability is inconsequential. A class ability that saves you a small amount of money that would otherwise have been spent on healing potions is nothing to brag about.

Currently were running a gestalt campaign and my character is 19 levels of monk with other things thrown in so I can give you my current max crit damage since we figured it up after my dm realized just how broken my character is-1700+ dam in one round. Our fighter, sorcerer and disciple of dispater each cap at between 900 to 1200.

Forgive me for saying so, but a real class like Barbarian, Psychic Warrior or something from Tome of Battle can do more damage.

Actually, I believe the current record holder for most damage dealt by a melee character in DnD from the WotC Charop forums is a Barbarian.

I also have a sorcerer build that throws out over 2000 damage per round. Maximized, Empowered Twinned, Violate, Energy Admixtured, Searing Spell, Piercing Cold Orbs of Fire delivered under the effects of an Arcane Spellsurge tends to be pretty terrifying. I can't imagine what I'd be doing if I gestalted it.

Probably more damage.

Bottom line, it's just not enough to contribute in a party if you face god-forsaken horrors from the abyss. It's about on the same level as a fighter, and even that is considered a pretty weak class.

 

[nightdrake66]

This is all true but I'm not comparing it to something that takes 4 characters at level 13 to beat. I was comparing it to the quitessential fighter that is at the same level the monk is. And the monk I am referring to in our campaign is not optimized per se. It is a pure monk with "fun" things thrown in. Also the "higher than 8 saves" are purely because I am too lazy to figure up what they really should be, those are just the base saves which are all good base saves. And believe me when I say immunity to poison and disease is a great boon. Everyone rolls a "1" sometimes.

 

[nightdrake66]

Challenge Rating
This shows the average level of a party of adventurers for which one creature would make an encounter of moderate difficulty.

Please show me an example of a single 13th level character that can take on your ice devil and not die.