Any Ph.D.s or Lawyers in the crowd? Questions about how it goes.

[Akrasia]

...
The other thing that's essential in the world of academia is networking. Never underestimate the importance of networking. Many times it's not just what you know, but who you know that makes the biggest difference.

If you go to a top-ten Ph.D. program, a lot of this is taken care of for you, as your advisors will be 'big names'.

In any case, the great thing about analytic philosophy, is that the quality of arguments do count.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

So I'm facing a decision in the very near future: Seek my Ph.D. in philosophy, or go to Law School. I've got the marks, the LSAT, the GRE, all of that is already in the bag. My undergrad is done, and I've been working for the last year to put my wife through teacher's college. From what I've heard from a man who's gone through both, I'm more interested in philosophy, and more suited to the rigors of law school. So it's 50/50.

To the Ph.D.s: Does a Ph.D. in philosophy consign me to moving all over North America if I want a job in an actual university? Do I need to be willing to move to a prominent US university for my graduate work in order to get hired once I'm finished?

To the lawyers: Do you know of promising graduates that are having a hard time finding work? Is the field really all 16-hour days? Do graduates end up declaring personal bankruptcy from the loans they take out?

On a largely tangential note to this:

Many graduate students drastically undervalue their PhDs in the market at large. I know more than a few types who did not go into academic work and instead did very well for themselves in nearly any type of more 'mundane' work they decided on.

Employers tend to look kindly and someone who has proven themselves as much as a PhD must and their kindness is generally rewarded by people who do pretty well in a professional work place, have a little intelligence, can think, and can write and read very well.

Mind you, that's not at all a reason to get a PhD since there are easier routes, but it's a little less presure when you do get one.

 

[Akrasia]

On a largely tangential note to this:

Many graduate students drastically undervalue their PhDs in the market at large. I know more than a few types who did not go into academic work and instead did very well for themselves in nearly any type of more 'mundane' work they decided on.

Employers tend to look kindly and someone who has proven themselves as much as a PhD must and their kindness is generally rewarded by people who do pretty well in a professional work place, have a little intelligence, can think, and can write and read very well.

Mind you, that's not at all a reason to get a PhD since there are easier routes, but it's a little less presure when you do get one.

This is an excellent point! I know many friends who have done extremely well in 'the real world' with PhD's in analytical philosophy -- getting better jobs than people who studied something 'practical' in fact.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

To the lawyers: Do you know of promising graduates that are having a hard time finding work? Is the field really all 16-hour days? Do graduates end up declaring personal bankruptcy from the loans they take out?

I'm not really sure what the job market is for the profession in general. My firm hires only graduates in the top ten percent, generally, and lawyers with those grades can find work pretty much anywhere, anytime.

14-hour days are pretty much the norm for an attorney on the partner track at a corporate firm. The numbers will be different in various areas of the government or public interest, and they'll differ in different areas of the country, too. A friend of mine from law school is a family law prosecutor in Kentucky, and she generally works a 40 hour week.

I'm sure some graduates declare bankruptcy, but that's probably true from any student loans.

One thing you didn't ask: From my experience, most lawyers do not like being lawyers. From my own life, I'd guess fewer than five percent of my friends and colleagues would do it again, given the opportunity to go back in time. If you only poll those who enjoyed law school (like me), the number pretty much hits zero. (Law school and practice are nothing alike.)

Keep in mind, though, that a law degree is good for more than just practicing law ... no matter how bright or logical you believe you are before attending law school, the experience will refine your ability to reason and articulate arguments. It will also inevitably instill within you a disdain for those people who consider an "argument" and a "quarrel" to be the same thing, and for those people who are incapable of forming a coherent argument.

 

[pogre]

Just to echo everyone else's thoughts here:

I practiced for 6 years and just decided law was not fun enough for me. Law school is a great education, but being a lawyer was much less fun. I dropped my golden handcuffs (I love that term) and went back and got a teaching degree. Now, I teach high school and coach football and track. I make at least 50% less money, but I really look forward to going to work every day. AND - summers off! My god man, how can you beat Summers off!

BTW - and I know everyone knows this - you cannot get out from under school loans by declaring bankruptcy. School loans were the reason I practiced law as long as I did. Double payments allowed me to get out

 

[nakia]

I just finished my PhD (when I say just, I mean, just last week) in Philosophy of Education, after getting a BA and MA in philosophy proper. I'll just add to the chorus of folks saying that academic jobs require you to move. I've sent out 17 applications, ranging from Hawaii to Idaho to South Carolina to New York City.

Good luck in whatever you decide, and keep us posted.

 

[tarchon]

Keep in mind, though, that a law degree is good for more than just practicing law ... no matter how bright or logical you believe you are before attending law school, the experience will refine your ability to reason and articulate arguments. It will also inevitably instill within you a disdain for those people who consider an "argument" and a "quarrel" to be the same thing, and for those people who are incapable of forming a coherent argument.

Seems like there would be much cheaper ways of learning how to do that.

 

[rogueattorney]

To the lawyers: Do you know of promising graduates that are having a hard time finding work? Is the field really all 16-hour days? Do graduates end up declaring personal bankruptcy from the loans they take out?

Lawyer two years out of law school here who is beginning to consider leaving the profession. My advice:

The law school drop-out rate in my school for kids just out of undergraduate school was pretty staggering. Those who were a bit older and had worked for a living before coming to law school tended to do much better. If you're less than 25, I'd advise getting a job for a few years before coming to law school.

If you have the choice between going to a 1st tier school and racking up a ton of debt or going to a third tier school and graduating without any debt, go to the third tier school. There is not enough difference in the education to justify the $100k difference. (If you get nice scholarships for the top tiered school, then by all means...)

You will find a job out of law school. Whether it is a job you like, and whether you will be paid any money is a different matter. If you are in the top 10% of your class, you can come out of school and make $80k, $90k or more. But the firms expect you to earn that money with 60+ hour weeks. I wouldn't try to take on that kind of lifestyle if you have a family (or any intention on starting one).

Bankruptcy happens. Burnout happens. Most lawyers make two or three, or more job changes in their first 2 or 3 years of practice (and I'm no exception). A very large number drop out of practice in the first five years. The first thing I noticed when starting to practice in my local area was that the lawyers were all in their late 40's or older, or early 30's or younger. We really chew up the young and spit them out around here. However, the ones that are able to stick with it and succeed are all doing very well for themselves.

If you are interested in law as a study, go into academics. It only takes 3 years to get your JD compared to ??? for your phd. Another year for an LLM or a couple years clerking for a judge and you're on your way. But be warned: You must have impecable grades in law school to even think about going that road.

R.A.

 

[Akrasia]

... If you are interested in law as a study, go into academics. It only takes 3 years to get your JD compared to ??? for your phd. Another year for an LLM or a couple years clerking for a judge and you're on your way.

It is true that the legal route takes less time than the Ph.D. route.

On the other hand, though, any Ph.D. program worth its salt -- i.e. any top tier graduate program in analytical philosophy in North America -- will give you plenty of financial support (fellowships, teaching assistantships, etc.). As a result, you will not be in debt (or not in very much debt) when you finally graduate.

Time versus debt -- a hard trade-off indeed. :\

But be warned: You must have impecable grades in law school to even think about going that road.

This is true of academia in general. You certainly need impressive grades in order to get into a top tier graduate school (at least in analytical philosophy). Forget it if you have anything less than an A average. Most top programs only admit 4-10 students any given year (from a pool of 500+ applicants).

 

[ConspiracyAngel]

some here...

Yes. I have a co-worker that plays DnD, he is a Lawyer. As a matter of fact, he plays DnD with our Chief Accountant (or Dir. of Accouting, ... sorry JS if I got this wrong).

I was also attending a game with a guy who is currently in Law School... and as you could imagine, we haven't played in a while.

- ConspiracyAngel