Anybody tired of god-o-centric d&d worlds

[Plane Sailing]

Welcome to Eberron.

My thoughts exactly.

Although in the spirit of Sadriks original question, in my Eberron campaign I've done away with clerics, wizards and sorcerers, replacing them all with a single class called Scholar.

Scholars have d6 for HD, learn prepare and cast spells as per wizards but their spell list is expanded to include all cleric spells too (if a spell is on both lists at different levels, pick the lowest). All other aspects are like wizards, but with no familiar.

Druids still have their own spell list, with their own particular casting restrictions.

Paladins and Rangers are using arcane magic but their spell list spells are all non-Somatic spells, thus they can be cast in armour with no problem.

Some Scholars work for churches (and claim their power is from the divine), some Scholars work for dragonmarked houses or nobles or organisations or themselves.

FWIW I basically stole the Scholar idea from Conan OGL by Mongoose. Works very nicely.

As a further answer to your original question, alternative means of healing must be provided too - Eberron does that through house Jorasco, a dragonmarked house whose dragonmark provides healing spell-like abilities. And as an economic entity they see no problem in selling their healing services for hard cash.

Cheers

 

[mrtauntaun]

In our weekly game, we haven't had a cleric in group for over a year now. Primarily, in our homebrew world, there are no 'gods'. Sure, people believe in gods, and there is even healing magic, but it is so incredibly rare that it is almost never seen. This adds a great dynamic to the game, it's incredibly lethal. Everytime you start to take damage in a fight, especially the opening skirmish in an adventure, you wonder could this be the end of my PC? And talk about fouling up a well laid plan, nothing ever goes according to plan
I've been playin D&D for almost two decades now, and this is a totally new, and if I may say, refreshing, style of play. No more rushing in with a tank, and then buffing/healing him up. In fact, there are no spell casters in our group at all. Part of this is due to the fact that the world is very low magic, but also because we are enjoying this more lethal campaign.

 

[Menexenus]

Although this is a bit of a departure from D&D, you might also check out Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved (or Arcana Unearthed). If I recall correctly, his system has no gods, no clerics, no alignment, and wizards have access to (vastly reduced) healing spells.

 

[Spatzimaus]

In the homebrew I play, we don't have gods. The difference is, most common magic is linked to one of the six basic elements... Fire, Water, Air, Earth, Life, and Death. (There's rarer stuff, too... Psionic, Astral, Force, Light, Nexus, Time)
Our world is the Elemental Plane of Life, so it's the strongest element here, while Death is relatively weak here (as the opposed plane). And every mage specializes quite a bit. So healing magic is just something a Life Elementalist would specialize in, nothing more or less. Now, in many areas Life magic is viewed as being something religious, something only priests should do, but it's not actually divine. (Likewise, people link Death magic to evil, even though it's not.)

Anyway, there's plenty you can do without having overt gods. I think the bigger problem is, as some have said, that the role of "healer" is viewed to be indispensable, making Clerics an automatic part of every group. If everyone who used any magic had the ability to do at least a little healing, it'd make a huge difference in that.

 

[Grazzt]

Check out Sean K Reynold's The New Argonauts. Certainly there are gods (its mythic Greece after all)...but no clerics. Healing/restoration/whatever is done through feats and skills (Heal skill IIRC and a Field Surgery feat and one other feat...cant recall the name at the moment).

 

[Sadrik]

My concept is to have all divine casters removed or give the classes like ranger and paladin other abilities in the place of their spellcasting. Mostly though it is a creative exercize in what ifs? I would like to come up with a campaign world with no gods and therefore no preistly powers. Yes clerics can be explained away as white magicians or mystics or something but that doesnt do them justice.

I think right now I favor this:
Give the wizard and sorcerer access to all divine spells at no cost is an interesting option. Like someone said why would there need to be a reason to balance them against anything else? Also, just removing divine spells completely from the game would be a mistake because it turns the game into: one fight then run away and heal for days and then go, repeat. That would alter the intent of four encounters per day dramatically and in turn lowering the amount of action the pc’s could get themselves into before down time.


The other points:
Use alchemy to create non-magical potions that can heal and make them very cheap. I get a visual of those bear hats where you can put a beer on either side of your head and each has a straw that comes down to your mouth. Craft points and all those rules from unearthed arcana would be welcome to using this.

So using feats that healed, the feats would have to be highly effective. Fast healing 1, anybody? And they would have to be good enough to warrant their high cost.

Arcana Evolved: I know well. It is a good game but not for this.

Ebberon: I only know fleetingly. It sounds pretty interesting. No gods there, just faith?

Limited damage conversion: Interesting I think if I didn’t want to keep the divine spells in I would probably do something like this.

Regenerating healing wands: yeah could work, they would be very rare and super expensive.

It is no wonder why fantasy worlds are wrought with terrible vile gods and otherworldly benevolent benefactors, they make interesting villains and allies. But what if they granted no powers...

 

[Klaus]

Re: Eberron -> Those who believe in them are utterly convinced that the gods are real. But no hard evidence can be found one way or the other (specially since religion-less clerics can still cast spells, drawing magic directly from the Syberis Ring that encircles the planet). The only palpable divine force in Eberron is the Undying Court, the group of deathless (positive-energy-undead-like elves) that help rule the island-nation of Aerenal. Although a single member of the court isn't a god per se, the collectivity can grant spells to their clerics. But they must remain in their island and don't meddle with mortal affairs much.

And there are several religions that worship an ideal, like the Path of Light, the Church of the Silver Flame and the Blood of Vol.

 

[Enforcer]

And there are several religions that worship an ideal, like the Path of Light, the Church of the Silver Flame and the Blood of Vol.

The Silver Flame is pretty tangible, I thought. Can't you go see it in Thrane?

 

[Bayonet_Chris]

Yeah

I'm generally opposed to directly linking clerics and magic. Someone can be a priest and not cast magic - the two things are separate in my mind.

 

[Sadrik]

I dont think the cleric is a very fullfilling class if it isnt linked to a god or at minimum to a pantheon of gods. That is why I think it would be good to get rid of them rather than alter or tweek them. Wouldnt it be simple enough to say, "Wizards and sorcerers can use any spell, just find the lowest level if it is on multiple lists."

It takes care of the system requirments of cheep/free easily accessed healing spells. However, it does weaken the casters overall. Because they will have to memorize or select their known spells as healing spells giving them less offensive punch. Hmm, maybe that is a good thing.

Now to balance the wizard schools some types of magic might be too powerful. For instance all of the healing spells are conjuration, they should be moved somewhere else to balance them. It never sat well with me that they were conjuration in the first place. Inflict spells could be moved to necromancy? and cure spells could be moved to abjuration? That would sure give that school a much needed boost.

All of the other divine spells could probably be kept in there appropriate schools.

Opinions ideas welcome...