Arcana of The Ancients: 5E Sci-Fantasy From Monte Cook Games Launches On KS

Monte Cook Games' 5E "Science Fantasy Sourcebook", Arcana of the Ancients, has launched on Kickstarter.

"Arcana of the Ancients is a sourcebook for 5th edition players and GMs to bring the wonders of mysterious technology and weird science-fantasy elements to their traditional fantasy campaigns. Designed by Monte Cook, Bruce R. Cordell, and Sean K. Reynolds, all of whom have years of professional design experience working on the world's most popular roleplaying game, this gorgeously illustrated hardcover sourcebook gives you everything you need to add a whole new element to your 5E game."

It's $50 for the hardcover, or $20 for the PDF. If you want to play Numenera with the 5E rules, this looks like the way you'd do that.

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[gyor]

The stretch goals only indicate what MCG is going to produce for the line (initially by way of the kickstarter anyway). You don't get them for free, though. You still have to pledge to the proper level to get whatever it is you want.

As it is I may back down to just the main book and order the monster book as an add on. I was a little disappointed that the $185K stretch goal was a a premium version of the book rather than additional sourcebooks. Unless there is a big surge at the end I don't see the number of books swelling to make "All In" worth it.

Yeah, given all pdf is its own tier, making the premium book the next goal was a huge mistake, especially this far into the campaign, with only one other pdf, that you can get cheaper as a pdf. If they made it clear that there would be a minimum of 3 or 4 pdf for that tier it would reassure those backers. If they don't offer more pdf to that tier a lot will just do what you did.

 

[gyor]

At the $60 level you can't get a physical book. If you want a physical book, you have to pledge at least $160 to get ANY stretch goals, which frankly seems excessive to me.



I am not a huge Kickstarter devotee, but I have backed a fair few over the last 5-6 years, and this is the first time I have ever seen one that set such a high threshhold to receive stretch goals.


It could also discourage people who might have been willing to pledge at lower levels from pledging at all. If there's very little difference between pledging in advance and just buying the book when it comes out, it decreases the incentive to pledge.

The product is interesting, but the kickstarter is poorly designed.

 

[Derren]

Still not sure what the actual benefit of the book is when it is only about adding some SciFi stuff to a fantasy game. Every sufficiently advanced technology looks like magic, so what makes having strange technological items in a fantasy world any different from having strange magical items which already exists by the dozen?

If the book really blended fantasy and SciFi the way Starfinder and Shadowrun does I would support it instantly. But just another equipment and monster book with a slightly different paint on the outside? I am not really interested in that.

 

[seankreynolds]

To be honest, not giving at least a PDF of the extra material to all the pledgers above a certain minimum level strikes me as kind of chintzy.

Giving away PDFs reduces the perceived value of PDFs. Here's an example:
A 144-page hardcover like Slaves of the Machine God is $40, it's PDF is $15.
The lowest pledge level on the AotA campaign is $20 (for just the PDF of AotA).
The next one is $50 (for the print + PDF of AotA).
The next is $60 for all the PDFs.
And then $160 for all the print books. (To simplify things, I skipped the retailer-only level and the level that includes another book already in production.)
If a stretch goal unlocks a new 144-page book, adding the $15 PDF of that automatically to every backer level is nice for the $20 and $50 backers. But it doesn't help the $60 or higher backers, so there's little incentive for someone to pledge at any of the higher levels because they're not getting a greater benefit than anyone who pledged at the lowest levels.

I feel like calling them "stretch goals" in that case is misleading.

I think you're mistaken about what "stretch goal" means. A stretch goal in a Kickstarter (as defined on the Kickstarter site) is "a funding target set by the project creator beyond the original Kickstarter goal." That's all it is. It doesn't mean that one or more backer levels or rewards are suddenly worth more. A project could have a stretch goal where the creators add backer names to a book as a thank-you, or that they'll give away X copies to libraries/schools/gaming clubs, or that they'll make a thank-you video on YouTube; none of those make any of the backer levels better.

That said, the stretch goals in the AotA Kickstarter do add value--different stretch goals affect different backer levels in different ways. Which can be an incentive to switch to a different backer level.
And our Kickstarters always end up with those "all the X" backer levels being a really good deal. For example, the Numenera Discovery and Destiny Kickstarer had a $100 "all the PDFs" backer level that people weren't interested in because the project launched with just two big books ($20 each). By the end of the Kickstarter, TEN additional items were unlocked via stretched goals, and the total value of all of those PDFs ended up at about $150 (just me estimating, as not all of these are available yet so I don't know the exact PDF prices of upcoming releases). Which is why in the last few days of our Kickstarters, a lot of backers increase their pledge to the "all the X" backer level.

At the $60 level you can't get a physical book.

The $60 "all the PDFs level" isn't a backer level for people who want physical books. We have a lot of people who only want PDFs, or only want print books. Two different types of customers, two different kinds of backer levels. It sounds like the PDF-only backer level isn't something you're interested in, and that's fine.

If you want a physical book, you have to pledge at least $160 to get ANY stretch goals, which frankly seems excessive to me.
I am not a huge Kickstarter devotee, but I have backed a fair few over the last 5-6 years, and this is the first time I have ever seen one that set such a high threshhold to receive stretch goals.

The $50 pledge level (which gets you the AotA book in print, and the PDF, too) has already been improved by the $135k stretch goal, which expanded the book (more pages) to include another full-length adventure.

And the $20 PDF-only backer level was likewise improved by that very same $135k stretch goal.

Yes, the next stretch goal (for the deluxe book) doesn't improve either of those backer levels, it adds to the higher backer levels. But remember that not every stretch goal has to add value to all stretch goals. Different stretch goals are built for different customers, and not all incentives (which is what a stretch goal is) are meant to entice all customers. I go to Starbucks every day to get a drink, and a one-day promotion to try their bacon breakfast sandwich is useless to me (I'm a vegetarian), but there will be other one-day promotions that are tailored for my interests.

 

[TrickyUK]

What I am not happy about is the presumption that there will be enough funding to hit stretch goals to justify a higher pledge, when hitting stretch goals needs higher pledges. Why would I back at $160 for something that will only be of value if enough people back to hit an as yet unspecified target. With the initial funding goal, you know what is needed to achieve it and so your money is safe - if it's not hit, then you lose nothing or if it is hit, you get the product. For $160, I have to hope that there is enough funding (and what if the creator sets excessively high stretch goals) to achieve the products.

As it stands, backers at $160 are surely waiting to see if there is going to be enough funding or else they will consider lowering their pledges. The way this KS is presented, MCG looks to have already done a fair bit of planning for the products they want to include, so why hide them behind stretch goals. Just be transparent and say we have a line of books planned, but we can only produce them if we have enough funds.

At the moment, this KS is tracking close to the original Numenera. Numenera 2 was much more successful, but that may be because of the fanbase. However, D&D has a huge fanbase and so I would have been expecting a slightly higher start to this campaign. Still, if it ends up like the original Numenera, then $500k is not out of the question - so what would the stretch goals look like to that amount?

EDIT: I should point out that I like MCG products - have all Numenera, Strange and Invisible Sun. I also like the KS platform for generating funds. Just not happy with the way this KS is currently being managed.

 

[seankreynolds]

What I am not happy about is the presumption that there will be enough funding to hit stretch goals to justify a higher pledge, when hitting stretch goals needs higher pledges. Why would I back at $160 for something that will only be of value if enough people back to hit an as yet unspecified target. With the initial funding goal, you know what is needed to achieve it and so your money is safe - if it's not hit, then you lose nothing or if it is hit, you get the product. For $160, I have to hope that there is enough funding (and what if the creator sets excessively high stretch goals) to achieve the products.

That's how we do our Kickstarters: there's an "all the X" backer level that adds value over the course of the campaign, and at some point (based on total pledges, which includes all the people pledged at a low level and all the people at a high level) it becomes obvious how much of a good deal it is. We have a lot of repeat backers who are familiar with our Kickstarters (and their how their funding progresses) and back at those levels at the start because they know they'll turn out great. And we have a lot of new backers (and repeat backers who aren't as familiar with this pattern as others), and they back at a lower, more concrete level, wonder exactly the things that you're wondering, and by the end of the Kickstarter they decide whether or not to adjust their pledge to one of the "all the X" pledge levels (and based on the last-day internal Kickstarter data, a LOT of them decide to upgrade their pledge).

That's the great thing about Kickstarter: you can adjust your pledge as often as you want (or even cancel), even down to the last minute, so you can start low and upgrade to an "all the X" level as soon as it becomes too good for you to pass up, or you could start with "all the X" level and downgrade to a lower pledge on the last day if your original pledge value wasn't meeting your expectations. So your money is always "safe" (to use your word).

 

[TrickyUK]

That's how we do our Kickstarters: there's an "all the X" backer level that adds value over the course of the campaign, and at some point (based on total pledges, which includes all the people pledged at a low level and all the people at a high level) it becomes obvious how much of a good deal it is. We have a lot of repeat backers who are familiar with our Kickstarters (and their how their funding progresses) and back at those levels at the start because they know they'll turn out great. And we have a lot of new backers (and repeat backers who aren't as familiar with this pattern as others), and they back at a lower, more concrete level, wonder exactly the things that you're wondering, and by the end of the Kickstarter they decide whether or not to adjust their pledge to one of the "all the X" pledge levels (and based on the last-day internal Kickstarter data, a LOT of them decide to upgrade their pledge).

That's the great thing about Kickstarter: you can adjust your pledge as often as you want (or even cancel), even down to the last minute, so you can start low and upgrade to an "all the X" level as soon as it becomes too good for you to pass up, or you could start with "all the X" level and downgrade to a lower pledge on the last day if your original pledge value wasn't meeting your expectations. So your money is always "safe" (to use your word).

I do get that and know that is how you do your Kickstarters, and I really hope that enough people are willing to put money in up front in order for you to reveal the stretch goals that would make the 'All in X' pledge worth it. I just prefer more transparency up front - you tell me what I am backing and I will make the decision whether to make a pledge. This 'blind' backing approach doesn't work for me and the risk is that if there are many more like me, then without the pledges up front, no stretch goals revealed and so no pledges higher pledges are made and the circle continues. Also what happens if a load of people makes pledges to reveal the stretch goals and then pull their pledges (not likely to happen, I know), but if I backed at an 'all in' level I have to keep watching the Kickstarter like some kind of stock exchange or eBay bid making sure that my money is still safe - too much hassle for me.

So, I remain on the fence waiting for others to put their money forward in the hope that they hit the goals and more is revealed until such time as there is a definite offer of something.

But, good luck with the campaign and I will check back in 14 days to see how things look then.

 

[seankreynolds]

I do get that and know that is how you do your Kickstarters, and I really hope that enough people are willing to put money in up front in order for you to reveal the stretch goals that would make the 'All in X' pledge worth it. I just prefer more transparency up front - you tell me what I am backing and I will make the decision whether to make a pledge.

That's fair, and I get that you don't like it that way. There are upsides and downsides to doing it our way and to doing it the way you prefer, and we've found that doing it our way works best for us.

This 'blind' backing approach doesn't work for me and the risk is that if there are many more like me, then without the pledges up front, no stretch goals revealed and so no pledges higher pledges are made and the circle continues.

All backers push the needle forward, regardless of what backer level they pledge at. Just a quick look at the current numbers, we're at about $180k total (for an initial funding goal of $50k). 1,025 backers have chosen backer levels that have fixed rewards, for a total for $42k. 1,164 backers have chosen backer levels that include "all the PDFs" or "all the books," for a total of $137k. So just over half the backers have chosen an "all the X" backer level and are responsible for 3/4 of the funding total; they know those levels will be a great deal and they've pushed the overall total very nicely.

Also what happens if a load of people makes pledges to reveal the stretch goals and then pull their pledges (not likely to happen, I know)

That could happen. But it's never happened for any of our Kickstarter projects. And that's partly because we're really careful about stretch goals, especially on the last few days. We don't want to be in a situation where a bunch of people reducing or cancelling their pledges would reverse a stretch goal we hit.

but if I backed at an 'all in' level I have to keep watching the Kickstarter like some kind of stock exchange or eBay bid making sure that my money is still safe - too much hassle for me. So, I remain on the fence waiting for others to put their money forward in the hope that they hit the goals and more is revealed until such time as there is a definite offer of something.

I'm not arguing that it's not a hassle for you. I'm just saying that you're not the only sort of backer we have, and what we do seems to be working well for other sorts of backers (to repeat: over half of our current backers have chosen open-ended backer levels, and they're responsible for 3/4 of the funding so far). So feel free to fence-sit for a bit and see how things go, that's the nature of crowdfunding--and why we have fixed-reward backer levels.

 

[Istbor]

I jumped in to back this.

I think some Science-fantasy is perfect for the ruined, ring-world/tidally locked planet I am building for my next campaign. Trudging through frozen glaciers and burning deserts to discover long lost 'magics' for my group to discover it is instead ancient technology akin to magic is too good to pass up.

Hoping for the best out of this project!

 

[Reynard]

Huh, the next stretch goal is another core book expansion. The one after is the proper 5E Numenera setting boo, though.