D&D 5E Are DMs getting lazy?

[delericho]

What I wonder is why WotC is willing to C&D websites, etc... but not companies like Goodman and Frog God that are putting out actual compatible product.

As I understand it, none of the websites involved made use of the OGL, which Goodman and Frog God do. And I'm reasonably sure both those companies will have had their IP guys check their material very carefully to ensure that their products are compliant.

 

[Reynard]

As I understand it, none of the websites involved made use of the OGL, which Goodman and Frog God do. And I'm reasonably sure both those companies will have had their IP guys check their material very carefully to ensure that their products are compliant.

But what is the metric for compliance when nothing in 5E is released under the OGL. If everything is considered derivative then the only real issue is whether there are any trademarks present, no? If some things would not be considered derivative, how do you tell? Is Advantage/Disadvantage derivative, for example?

 

[delericho]

But what is the metric for compliance when nothing in 5E is released under the OGL.

There isn't one. But then, the OGL has also never been tested, and if WotC were to do so then they might lose more than they're willing to risk.

So my best guess (and, crucially, I am not a lawyer) is that simply using the OGL may well be enough of a fig leaf for them to leave you alone, provided you don't do something flagrantly wrong. (With the infraction most likely to meet with a C&D probably being a claim of compatibility.)

If everything is considered derivative then the only real issue is whether there are any trademarks present, no? If some things would not be considered derivative, how do you tell?

As someone noted on one of these threads, historically, the third-party providers that seem to have done best with less-than-approved third-party materials have tended to be founded by lawyers: Kenzer, Necromancer Games (and I'm not sure about Goodman). Frog God, of course, was by one of the same guys who started Necromancer, and although he wasn't the lawyer half of that team, it's likely he maintains contacts who are.

So, at a guess, Goodman and Frog God/Necromancer have had someone who is an IP lawyer either check out the material they've produced, or at least advised them quite carefully, on what is and is not allowed. That won't make for 100% certainty of course, as that only comes if WotC challenge it and it goes to court, but it's probably enough for reasonable confidence.

Is Advantage/Disadvantage derivative, for example?

I don't see how WotC can protect dis/advantage. The terms used for the mechanic are deliberately chosen to fit in natural language usage, which means they're almost certainly safe to use, and as we know game mechanics themselves can't be protected.

So an adventure that just wants to use dis/advantage can just talk about "granting advantage on this check" or whatever, while a new game that wanted to use them should be able to redefine the terms in the author's own language.

Very important, though: I am not a lawyer! If you're thinking of doing this, go speak to one first!

 

[Shroomy]

But what is the metric for compliance when nothing in 5E is released under the OGL. If everything is considered derivative then the only real issue is whether there are any trademarks present, no? If some things would not be considered derivative, how do you tell? Is Advantage/Disadvantage derivative, for example?

Assuming that you're in compliance with the terms of the OGL, it's pretty much just a matter of trademarks; avoid problems with them and you're OK. US Copyright law says you can't copyright game rules - just their literary expression - and the OGL (well, technically the d20 SRD released under the OGL) gives you access to 90+% of the terminology used in the game in any case (if you want to get right down to it, you don't need the OGL either if you're willing to be more careful). This is the same method that Goodman Games used to create 4e modules without adhering to the GSL; I think it's easier to create 5e content under the OGL since it's closer to the rules as presented in the d20 SRD.

This is the reason why I've advocated 5e's release under the OGL; the genie is out of the bottle and barring major legal changes, there's no putting it back in.

 

[billd91]

What I wonder is why WotC is willing to C&D websites, etc... but not companies like Goodman and Frog God that are putting out actual compatible product. My gut says it is about trademark infringement ("D&D") rather than copyright issues. But I know next to nothing about IP law so I don't honestly know.

There may also be the nature of the websites. The ones I've heard about have been character builders or ones otherwise including a lot of directly lifted content from non-OGL sources. Adventures can get by with a lot of SRD-based language without including the exact expression of anything in 5e's materials, particularly if they refer the reader to the stat blocks in the Monster Manual or write their own.

 

[Hussar]

The issue might also be that the character builder sites that got a C&D pretty much allowed you to play D&D without actually buying any of the books since they included all sorts of spells and whatnot from the PHB that aren't in the Basic rules. A module that uses monsters from the MM doesn't really help you make a character. A character builder, obviously, does.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Kind of hard to do so safely without a license.

In case anyone didn't know, Enworld itself is running a 5th Patreon in order to produce more 5th Edition stuff...

https://www.patreon.com/ensider?rf=461304&ty=2

 

[Lord Nikon]

Wow, I read this entire thread, while we are 25 pages in as of this writing, the original poster is correct, folks are being lazy, or lacking creativity. I understand we all have lives, jobs or whatever, but it doesn't take that much time to sit down and write up a basic little adventure for the night. Not every adventure has to be epic and have plot twists.. I've been DM'ing for years upon years, and I found the best thing to do, is keep a little pad with you to jot down adventure ideas as you think of them. I've in the last few years moved up to just using evernote on my iphone. Its perfect and the free space they give per month is enough for me to grab my phone jot down an adventure idea every day until I get a chance to sit down at the end of the week and see what I can create with them for a nice little adventure.

 

[Nellisir]

Wow, I read this entire thread, while we are 25 pages in as of this writing, the original poster is correct, folks are being lazy, or lacking creativity. I understand we all have lives, jobs or whatever, but it doesn't take that much time to sit down and write up a basic little adventure for the night. Not every adventure has to be epic and have plot twists.. I've been DM'ing for years upon years, and I found the best thing to do, is keep a little pad with you to jot down adventure ideas as you think of them. I've in the last few years moved up to just using evernote on my iphone. Its perfect and the free space they give per month is enough for me to grab my phone jot down an adventure idea every day until I get a chance to sit down at the end of the week and see what I can create with them for a nice little adventure.

Can we PLEASE dispense with the "people are lazy, people lack creativity" rudeness?? Seriously?? Let's try some basic respect and give people you don't know a little credit first. I've homebrewed for THIRTY years. I've never run a published adventure, campaign, or setting. I like to read what other people write, and I like to see what ideas they have, and I don't want adventure paths.

Wanting more than adventure paths from WotC DOES NOT equal laziness or lack of creativity.

 

[Lord Nikon]

Can we PLEASE dispense with the "people are lazy, people lack creativity" rudeness?? Seriously?? Let's try some basic respect and give people you don't know a little credit first. I've homebrewed for THIRTY years. I've never run a published adventure, campaign, or setting. I like to read what other people write, and I like to see what ideas they have, and I don't want adventure paths.

Dude Chill out. I run my own homebrew as well, in fact I enjoy it more often then using published. I've only recently started using adventure paths in a pinch due to the lack of time I have in my new job. Last job I had, I was able to dedicate 10 hours a week to sit down, and write up a great adventure for the saturday group I was running.