D&D 4E Are easy checks....easy? (4e spoliers)

[DM_Blake]

Sadly, Amazon has failed me, and I still don't have my books. Not even shipped yet.

/cry

So, without official books to view, this is my take on Take 10 with skill challenges.

Assuming the DCs indicated in this thread are accurate, particularly the OP, I see the possibility that anyone with at least +5 to a skill could, conceivably, Take 10 when allowed and automatically succeed against the Easy DC.

If that's true, then the entire system seems broken.

I see it at the table like this:
DM: OK, guys, it's time for a skill challenge. Roll initiative and let's go!
Players: Wow, we really need to get out of this this town without getting caught. We don't have time to let the kidnappers get farther away while we sit in jail and wait for a court date, so we have to escape.
DM: Then you better succeed at the skill challenge. Joe won the initiative, what do you do?
Joe: Well, we can't afford to lose, so I choose easy difficulty and Take 10. I get a 19, so I succeed.
Tom: I'm next. I choose easy and Take 10, so I succeed.
Mary: My turn. Take 10, I succeed.
Dave: Me too. Success!
DM: OK, you needed 4 successes, you got away.
Everyone: (sarcastically) Whew! That was close!

So, can someone with the books tell me why that can't happen this way?

Sure, I know sometimes there's time pressure, or danger, and Take 10 won't be allowed. So maybe my example was not the best.

But, if there is EVER a time when Take 10 is available, couldn't the above scenario happen every time it can happen?

 

[GruTheWanderer]

So, can someone with the books tell me why that can't happen this way?

The players don't pick easy/medium/hard, and the default DC for the primary skills chosen by the DM is medium. If the players try to use skills not anticipated by the DM (but offer a good explanation for why they apply), the DMG recommends using the hard DC.

If the DM uses the easy DCs for the skill challenge, it's effectively a lower level skill challenge.

I think the numbers are screwy, too.

 

[Spatula]

nevermind me!

 

[kclark]

Basically this will never happen.

The players don't choose to take Easy checks.
The skill challenge that the DM designs may have some skills set at Easy or allow use of a different skill to change a skill DC to Easy. Plus the DM has every right to say that the use of the skill carries real risk enough to warrant a d20 being rolled, or if the players whine he makes the DC an opposed roll rather than a set DC. These are options given in the DMG.

Skill challenges are fairly freeform and basically outlined by the GM as something like this. Then the players decide how they want to tackle the challenge. The DMG suggests offering up a few of the skills that will help, especially if the players seem a little lost on how to accomplish the challenge. Other nonspecified skills may be applicable per the DM's approval and typically are only good for one success in the challenge.

Escape town from guards looking to hold you for questioning. (4 successes before 2 failures)
Stealth: Moderate difficulty. Example: Use this skill to sneak past guard stations. gain 1 success.
Streetwise: Hard difficulty. Example: get information on likely guard watched points and ways to avoid them. This use does not earn a success, but sets the difficulty for Stealth to Easy for the next 2 checks. Successful use of Streetwise may only be done once.
Diplomacy: Hard difficulty. Talk your way through a checkpoint. gain 1 success
Endurance: Hard difficulty. Just outrun the guards and hope to loose them this way. gain 1 success
Bluff: Moderate difficulty. Can set up a large distraction to ease your escape. Gain a success and a +2 on your next check.
Success: Characters escape from pursuit of the guards without violence in a timely fashion and are hot on the kidnapper's trail.
Failure: The guards close in on the PCs and attempt to arrest them. PCs are escorted to jail for questioning and kidnappers get significant advantage at a later time or combat ensues as PCs fight their way free. This imposes other penalties with the law at a future time.

 

[dasheiff]

DC I have used for various skill encounters. The characters are 8th level for reference.

Sneaking Pass Lazy Giants:4/2
19 Dungeneering, Nature, Stealth
23 Acrobatics, Athletics
27 History, Perception

Covering Up Giants that had to be killed along the way so that the other Giants don't notice.
19 Bluff, Heal, Insight
27 Religion, Street Wise

They needed to do research without arousing suspecion.
19 Arcana, History, Religion
23 Bluff, Diplomacy, Insight, Streetwise
27 Dungeoneering, Intimidate

After 6 Successes and 4 failure they begin to arouse suspecion. 2/1
19 Bluff, Diplomacy, History, Insight, Intimidate, Religion, Streetwise
23 Perception
27 Arcana
Success: They can continue researching.
Failure: The person can not longer research.

Eventally they got 10 successes and 7 failures. Part of the problem is they are choosing inapproate skills at time (diplomacy to sneak past a giant, athletics in the trivial contest, etc.) I'm trying not to be to be nice about it because part of this is just trying to see how the system hangles.

 

[Xyl]

The highest possible skill modifier for a 1st level character is +15 (+5 stat, +5 training, +3 skill focus, +2 race bonus). You can be about 5 points below that and still succeed on a "normal" DC with a roll of 10. That still makes it pretty tough to succeed on a skill challenge... especially since not every PC will have a good skill that applies to the challenge.

 

[dasheiff]

Remember for 1st level it's only a DC 20 if it's a single check. In a skill challenge it's DC 15 for a medium difficulty.

 

[Xyl]

Remember for 1st level it's only a DC 20 if it's a single check. In a skill challenge it's DC 15 for a medium difficulty.

I must have missed where it says that. Where is it?

 

[dasheiff]

I admit it is a bit convoluted and the more I look at it the more I think I'm wrong. The way it's written though makes what you guys say right, skill challenges aren't really doable at all.

Okay, on page 72-73 DMG Step 2 of Skill Challenges it tells you to use the chart on page 42 for the DC.

Now the example on page 42 uses a single skill check so it gets a +5, however, this is for a skill challenge so you wouldn't at the +5. Sadly, it does say that the skill challenge uses skill check, which would mean the +5 does go in there.

Sadly, this means that for each moderate DC (at 1st level) in a Skill Challenge is 20. Since each player has to make rolls the best we can hope for is that one player has a skill at +15 (the best) two players have a +10 (trained in the correct stat) and the other two at +0 (not trained and in a weak stat). Meaning that by on average for a 10/5 (full encounter challenge) if they each go twice they will have on average 5.5 successes and 8.5 failures. Meaning that when getting to 10 successes they will get about 15.45 failures, making it nearly impossible to ever complete a skill challenge. However, if we assume the moderate DC is 15 with the same characters. We get an average of 7 successes and 3 failures in 2 full rounds which means that on average they'll get 10 Successes around the same time as 4.3 Failures which actually makes it winable more often than not.

Remember, encounters are ment to be winable, while the books seems to suggest rules that make that impossible it can't be the correct reading of the rules.

 

[woodelf]

I'd go 2d10 before I went 3d6.

Nah. If you're gonna go that route, use mid20: roll 3 d20s and toss the highest and lowest. Still gives you the full range, and the curve isn't as heavily centered, so you can probably get away with just leaving everything else alone (like encounter scaling, etc.).

The only change that required for D&D3E was you needed to do something different about confirming crits--i haven't read far enough yet to see how crits happen in D&D4E, so don't know if that still applies. Still, if you want a non-flat curve, this is probably the best option.