Are high ECL races worth it?

[Lord Pendragon]

That's how we play it, too. If you take an ECL monster race, you start out with whatever HD are listed for the creature in the MM, then add HD from levels on to that. A tiefling is listed as getting one HD, so a 1st-level tiefling will get 2 HD, one from class levels, and one from being a tiefling. Higher ECL creatures, like a troll, for instance, would start with more HD.

I'm curious: is there a rule somewhere that specifically states that +ECL creatures do not gain the standard HD for the creature, or is this a house rule that many people seem to be using?

 

[Kichwas]

I'm curious: is there a rule somewhere that specifically states that +ECL creatures do not gain the standard HD for the creature, or is this a house rule that many people seem to be using?

A good question I don't have an answer for. Save for that many ECL'd races don't even say what the hit dice would be.

 

[thundershot]

I'm all about the ECL, though I now warn anyone using a race with one, that it CAN be altered during the course of play, depending on how powerful the character turns out.

It's the character that matters.. not the numbers, in the end. Any fair DM will see when a character is having balance problems, and should adjust accordingly. Never let an ECL get in the way of playing a character that you want to play...


Chris

 

[Sir Apropos]

For my next campaign I plan on allowing ECL(LA) races and plan on compensating for the low HD of some of the Races with the addition of Wound Points, similar to Star Wars system. Getting your Con score in extra HP will help assure that low level ECL races stay around long enough to advance to a comfortable level enough to survive a few levels more.

 

[EOL]

Blunt Instrument

The whole ECL system is unfortunately a very blunt instrument you're either a complete level of difference or not, I like the unified experience chart, but in actuality a percentage penalty to XP might be easier to refine to the point where it balanced out.

 

[Humanophile]

Re: Blunt Instrument

The whole ECL system is unfortunately a very blunt instrument you're either a complete level of difference or not, I like the unified experience chart, but in actuality a percentage penalty to XP might be easier to refine to the point where it balanced out.

Big I dunno here. Multiclass XP penalty seems to have been designed with an eye towards "if they ignore it, things'll still run pretty much the same". But I remember back in 2e, any percent XP bonus or penalty short of half or double was often ignored, and that'd take us back to many 2e ways.

 

[hong]

A good question I don't have an answer for. Save for that many ECL'd races don't even say what the hit dice would be.

Remember that ECL is just a way of figuring out how much XP to award a character from a powerful race. The actual mechanics for HD, skill points, etc are have nothing to do with ECL.

In this case, a character from an ECL race has monster HD determined by their monster type: humanoids and outsiders have d8, undead and dragons have d12, fey have d6, etc. HD gained from class levels stack on top of that. Also remember that 1HD creatures don't have any monster HD at all, if they have class levels -- ie, their class levels replace their monster level.

 

[MasterOfHeaven]

I think the ECL system as it is works fine. There are a few errors that could be fixed, but that's true of the CR system as well. I think the ECL system for non-standard races should be regarded just like the CR system.. it's a guideline, you don't have to follow it religiously.

 

[Cabral]

I don't like the canon ECLs My first level Half-Celestial Cleric was no where near as potent as the 4th level party he was with.

I personally toss out ECLs and use CRs.
"An NPC with a PC class has a Challenge Rating equal to the NPC's level" (DMG, page 167)
"...add the creature's base CR to it's total class levels to get its overall CR." (DMG, page 167)

Therefore, it's a logical conclusion that Level + CR = Effective Level.

... so what if it's contradicted on page 22 ... it's not my job to make the DMG make sense ... just to pick and choose the parts I like.

 

[Gez]

Well, ECL above +3 are not going to be used, I think. A half-celestial svirfneblin wizard would have 1 HD at level 7th. Great. Can you say "I want to die" ?

The problem with ECLs is that they are often overestimated. Take the alaghi in Monsters of Faerun. Basically, it's a large monstrous humanoid, a 9 HD wookie with +8 strength, +4 Int, -2 Wis, -4 Cha IIRC. And maybe a bit of natural armor, I don't remember. Well, it is dubbed ECL +11. Given that it's useful only for fighter or barbarians, would you prefer playing a 12th level half-orc fighter, or have a bigger strength score but at the cost of even worse Int, Cha and Wis, less HD, hit points, skill points and feats ? Now that monsters can have class levels, they should really try to make base monsters (when potentially playable) as "weak" as possible, so as to give them a correct ECL. Rather than a 9 HD wookie, a 1 HD wookie with an ECL of at most +1.