D&D 5E Are powergamers a problem and do you allow them to play in your games?

Kobold Boots

Banned
Banned
I'm going to throw a hot take out there. I really don't mean to offend anyone but at the same time I think this is how I feel about powergamers.

They're not the problem. DM's that can't handle powergamers, need to learn how to handle them as part of their growth as a DM, or they shouldn't be DMs.

If you asked me this same question 20 years ago I'd feel differently, but just like other things, there's "good" powergaming and "bad" powergaming. It's got more to do with the player in question than the practice of doing it.
 

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Different people obviously have different definitions for the terms we use to describe types of players, but in my 35+ years of playing D&D, and many other systems, this is my general view.

Most players I have gamed with do some general level of optimization so that their characters are at least effective in the game. The next step into specialization is the power gamer and they can be worked with for the most part. Then more extreme are the min-maxers, who I try to avoid. And finally there are the full-blown munchkins, who must be avoided at all costs, since for me, they ruin the game for everyone. Of course, there is also a problem at the other extreme, where you have players who do not try at all, or seem to care, to make a functional character. Worse are the ones who intentionally make a character who cannot do anything effectively. And then there are those "players" who want to do nothing but kill everything that gets in their way and take all their treasure. But it all really comes down to the group and where the line is drawn for where these types stop being fun to play with.
 

mellored

Legend
No, power gamers are no a problem.
Yes, I let them play. I also kind of am one.


First, you can never beat the DM. He always has more monsters. Don't be shy about throwing in extra monsters.
Second, anything the player can do the DM can do as well.
Third, don't make everything about combat. The moment you ask a power gamer to make a Charisma check is the moment he realizes he's forgotten something.
 

Nevvur

Explorer
@FrogReaver

You can also engage in those tactics with feats and multiclassing enabled, and I believe the disruption caused by combining them is greater than dealing solely with the tactical choices you describe. Yes, a standard rogue can kite, but one with CE and SS is going to be more effective (or disruptive) when doing so, for example.

A determined powergamer will find a way to play the game the way powergamers be playin', and if that means engaging in the tactics you describe, I'm fine with that. We differ in our opinions about what's harder to manage as a DM. As I see it, most combats are about HP attrition, so I view very high DPR feat/multiclass builds as more problematic. Kiting doesn't come up enough in actual play for me to stress over, and I've been DMing long enough to expect spellcasters to make the battlefield weird with magic. Not much to do about paladins saving their smites unless the DM feels like house ruling class features, which I largely avoid. Still, I'd rather have a no feats/no MC paladin saving his smites than warlock/paladin spamming them.

A confession as an aside: I've never actually had a powergamer at one of my home tables (AL is different), at least not the way the term is being used here. Nearly all my players are strong optimizers, though. I've also never run a table without feats and multiclassing until just last night, when my players embarked on their first adventure of a new campaign that's been in the planning for months. However, this decision wasn't made to contain powergamers, so I won't be able to provide an actual play report about the effects removing feats/MC has on that player type.

Anyway, the bottom line as far as you're concerned - if I'm reading you correctly - is that removing feats/MC doesn't reduce disruption from powergamers, and may in fact increase it. Positive or negative, the imaginary average % difference in disruption is probably rather low for either of our positions given the enormous fuzzy space we're talking about. I admit to presenting the removal of feats/MC as a handy silver bullet for problematic powergamers, and that's clearly not the case. I think it can be helpful for DMs like myself who regard major DPR disparities as problematic, but it won't address all the underlying challenges (socially and mechanically) that powergamers bring to the table.

I will maintain that it's a handy game setting for weeding out powergamers (some, not all), if it's a matter of recruiting new players.
 
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schnee

First Post
Giving a response that was really a non-response to my first point and questioning my age on the 2nd point aren't good ways to discuss anything.

Oh, those weren't attacks against you, something was lost in translation on the web.

I wasn't questioning your age as a way to question your authority, I was saying that I'd bet you're probably older or playing with an older crowd if you don't see it much. On other boards that trend young (like GiantITP) the DM boards are constantly full of issues with powergaming, and the threads and comments revolve much more strongly about optimal builds and mechanically optimal strategies. (i.e. If you're a Druid, play Moon. Land is lame, but if you play one, do Coast or Grasslands, the rest of those suck.)

I was also making a joke with 'immorality' and blew it - I should have said 'obscenity'. If you know or remember the obscenity trials of the 80's, there was that great quote from Justice Stewart.


If you do the whole powergaming is bad I don't allow power gamers spheell that goes on here then it wouldn't be surprising that such players make some other optimized build that you inevitably find fault with.

Well, that's a big assumption on your part. The power gamers I've encountered were not just 'optimizers', they role played differently. Like, being incredibly meta, using out of character knowledge to 'win' role playing exchanges, doing or saying things that were completely out of the personality they originally stated - in ways the entire table noticed - when it was mechanically more beneficial, stuff like that.

So, for me, the idea that a powergamer is just plain better at the game and can dial it down any time they want never has panned out. The attitude that drives someone to exploit every possible loophole is one that expresses itself in many ways beyond the character sheet's numbers, and they are all detrimental to a more chill table, and the build is the least of the concerns.
 

Mad_Jack

Legend
Taking the most efficient choice isn't system mastery. System mastery is basically breaking the system while staying with in the rules.

No... That's one possible (and highly annoying) use of "system mastery". You seem to be applying your own definitions and biases to terms like powergaming and system mastery, and then saying that we're incorrect because those words don't mean to us what they mean to you.
My definition of system mastery is knowing all the rules and mechanical elements of the game and how they interact as they're written.
Any good player should strive for system mastery even of a beer-and-pretzels game simply as a courtesy to the other players as part of the social contract of the gaming group - if you can't be bothered to learn what your character's abilities do and hold up the game for five minutes every time your turn comes around, you're being rude and inconsiderate.
Powergaming involves then using that knowledge of the game rules and mechanics, and the synergy between various elements of such, to best advantage. What you choose to do with your knowledge is the actual crux of the issue you seem to feel so strongly about. You can "powergame" towards any goal you choose, and this is not an inherently disruptive behavior. It only becomes disruptive, just like anything else, when the person choosing to do so does it in a vacuum without any consideration for the tone of the game and the desires of the DM and other players. Do you believe that optimizing for maximum damage is the only way to powergame? I can build a Life cleric maxed out on healing, and contribute just as much damage to the fight as the raging barbarian by keeping him on his feet killing things long after he should have gone down. On the other hand, I could use that same maxed-out Life cleric to keep a party of "Jimmy's special little snowflake" characters from getting TPKed when they happen to stumble into a fight they're nowhere close to being able to win (because they didn't bother to devote any character resources at all to making sure their character survived long enough to make their fancy speech to the King and talk him out of starting a war by rolling some dice)...
Would it be more or less disruptive if the party bard managed to talk everyone he met into joining his side of things? Sucks that your adventure has nowhere to go because the Bard turned the mob of angry protesters into a community project to pick up all the trash in the town square.
Bringing a raging death-o-matic barbarian to an espionage game is not powergaming, because you've just gamed yourself right out of contributing anything to the party since there's nothing around to hit. Bringing that same maxed-out barbarian to a game where the party is a bunch of average Joes isn't powergaming. All you've done is made the rest of the group unhappy and possibly gotten yourself disinvited from the next session. If, as you say, "powergaming" means that winning at all costs is the only thing that matters, then you've lost.

Your problem isn't with powergaming or powergamers, it's with self-absorbed idiots who don't care whether or not their idea of fun is incompatible with the rest of the group, and powergaming for big numbers when rolling dice is something that produces immediate gratification without having to invest great effort into it. Particularly in combat. Combat requires more rules than other areas of the game, and thus there's more chance to use those rules. Which makes it a very attractive way to get their "I win" fix.
 


Zardnaar

Legend
I'm sort of a power gamer but I prefer being the best at what I chose to do, that could be something like healing and I will always take whatever the party needs (generally I pick last).

I might decide to pick being a leader type so battlemaster fighter+inspirational healer+ healer+commander feat.

If I roll very well I am more likely to pick a non standard class and race combo as you are already ahead of the curve (dwarf sorcerer) or some MAD class (melee cleric in medium armor).
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
Remove feats and multiclassing. They're the lifeblood of powergaming in 5e, and optional systems besides.

Caution: won't fix glassbowls

Really you could just get rid of 2 or 3 feats.

Multiclassing needs stricter rules. But I'd be ok with getting rid of it, too.
 

Corpsetaker

First Post
"Nuh-uh. Come to my thread to agree with me!"

Corpsetaker in a nutshell folks.

Really, what did you expect with this thread lol?

So why did you come here? What constructive message did you actually bring to the conversation? Did you think you were going to get a load of people around you going "yeah yeah yeah"?
 

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