Are scry durations too short?

[Audrik]

As a DM, I think scrying is alright as it is. As a player, I'd say it was a bit expensive for the duration. For that kind of money, it should last at least as long as the average Eladrin shower.

 

[MarkB]

Yes, by design, as simple plans are less prone to disruption, whether through bad luck or meddling heroes.

I'm a fairly uncomplicated thinker. The heaviest plan I can come up with in short order is:
Objective: Overthrow the king and take his place.
Overthrow method: Encourage noble house A to assassinate king.
Encouragement method: Cause king to enact laws unfavorable to noble house A.
Replace method: Ingratiate self with peasants.
Ingratiation method: Host regular feasts free to all.

That's a plan that could easily take an hour for discussion(what laws, how do we stop noble house A from getting political allies, where does the food come from, what is the timing on all of these measures, etc.). It sums up in 5 bullet points, which is two castings for a competent 18th level ritual caster.

Can you provide a specific plan, either in bullet points as above or in essay format, which is sufficiently sophisticated that the parts the PCs need cannot be summarized down to 6 brief phrases? I say 6 because that's what a ritual caster choosing between View Object and Consult Oracle can expect to get for about the same expenditure as View Object.

Can I write out a plan long enough that it would take a large fraction of an hour to present even in condensed form? Yes, certainly.

Will I engage in an extended creative-writing project simply for the sake of discussing the shortcomings of short-duration scrying spells? Hmm, let me think... no.

You yourself may favour more straightforward plans for your villains, but I refuse to believe that you lack the imagination to conceive of villains in other campaigns having more complex and involved plans.

 

[theNater]

Can I write out a plan long enough that it would take a large fraction of an hour to present even in condensed form? Yes, certainly.

A full hour isn't necessary. All I desire is a plan for which 6 bullet points is insufficient to provide the PCs with a broad overview and one or two likely options for appropriate action.

Will I engage in an extended creative-writing project simply for the sake of discussing the shortcomings of short-duration scrying spells? Hmm, let me think... no.

I never asked for an extended creative-writing project. I don't need a creative new plan, a boring old one would be great. If they show up often enough in campaigns for the longer scry duration to be necessary, someone must have already seen one.

You yourself may favour more straightforward plans for your villains, but I refuse to believe that you lack the imagination to conceive of villains in other campaigns having more complex and involved plans.

I can accept the possibility that such plans might exist. I can also accept the possibility that such plans might not exist. Until I get some evidence, however, I cannot take either possibility as actual truth. Given that scry durations being too short would warrant the creation of a house rule, burden of proof falls to the claims of the existence of such plans.

The reason I've been asking for specific examples is that one of the most straightforward ways to prove something can exist is to create or identify an example of it. I would happily accept other proofs, should those be easier to provide.

 

[Lord_Q]

The Issue with the short duration isn't that you can't learn what you need in the alloted time. The problem is instead that assuming that a 30 second maximum viewing time (remember you could get less depending on your roll) can be timed accurately enough to see what you want breaks supencion of disbelief. Then add to that the redicilous ratio of an hure of setup for 30 seconds of payout and you have further problems. Essentially the problem is not with the ritual as a plot device but as a feasable addition to the game world.

Think how much more reasonable it sounds to say: spend 10 minutes setting up for a maximum of 5 minutes of observation. In 5 minutes you aren't really going to get any more plot breaking infomation than the curent version, but it's a lot more feasable that you managed to catch the right time to get that infomation. Additionally you didn't spend 120 times as long setting up for the viewing than actually watching the target (that's 60 minutes in an hr times 10 rounds in a minute divided by 5 rounds).

I for one have already house ruled that in my games the scrying rituals durations are measured in minutes rather than rounds (after all it takes me 4 minutes to make instant noodles, that's 8 times the written duration for an action that claims to be "instant"). It doesn't empower the players to really learn more than what i'd have given them for the 30 second version, but it makes it feal like less of a deus ex machina that they managed to tune in at the right time to see what they saw

 

[Wolfwood2]

The Issue with the short duration isn't that you can't learn what you need in the alloted time. The problem is instead that assuming that a 30 second maximum viewing time (remember you could get less depending on your roll) can be timed accurately enough to see what you want breaks supencion of disbelief. Then add to that the redicilous ratio of an hure of setup for 30 seconds of payout and you have further problems. Essentially the problem is not with the ritual as a plot device but as a feasable addition to the game world.

How do you define "learn what you need" and "see what you want"? That's the core question. The unmodified ritual seems to be assuming that the goal of the scry is to see what somebody looks like, not to spy on them (despite the flavor text). Rather than change the scry ritual, maybe it would be better to add a new ritual specifically for long term spying.

I'd make the limitation on that ritual that a physical focus has to be put in the location you want to scry. So you have one ritual that lets you see somebody's face anywhere in the world and another ritual for having the party sneak stealth their way into to meeting chamber and plant a bug to spy on the meeting of the big bad.

I don't see any reason PCs should be able to spy for long periods of time from the comfort of their own tower without going to at least some effort. Why give them that capability?

 

[Korpus]

Can someone, anyone, provide me with a scenario in which an hour-long scry is uniquely informative?

One thought I had would be in a scenario where one of the PCs or a NPC dear to the group was placed on trial (for any reason, lets say its a corrupt judicial system).

The PCs are generally based and friends of the kingdom in question so would not aggressively act against its people nor would they try and sneak into a well guarded courtroom/jury room.

Scry would allow them to 'listen in' to the Jury or the Judge and perhaps uncover that its all a setup to manipulate the PCs and that their friend will be executed after being certain to be found guilty.

This point it gives the PCs the information that they would not normally get (Oracle might give the verdict but not the motives behind it) plus players would legitimately know when to use the Scry because there would be a specific time the jurors would be deliberating.

Not sure you would be able to pull that info in 18 seconds rather than one hour.

 

[Nytmare]

Will I engage in an extended creative-writing project simply for the sake of discussing the shortcomings of short-duration scrying spells? Hmm, let me think... no.

What's your favorite movie?

 

[DLichen]

It seems to me that scry just has a different use than it did in the old days, which is good considering it's power.

Now view object is great since if a plan is written down somewhere, you can just view copy of secret plans. View location is great since if you need to see if a distant fortress is being fortified in time of war, you can just scry it. Observe creature gives me a distinct Bourne feeling, where you get a snapshot of a target with subtle clues around that might give you a hint of where they are.

Rituals as a whole seem to follow the Discworld magic principle where the option through mundane means is almost always simpler but magic can do in a pinch. You're supposed to have spies and informants to find out plots, not rely on scry.

Some rituals do feel helplessly depowered, Wizard's Sight is hopelessly hard to use (10 minute casting time, seriously?), same with Knock. I wouldn't be surprised if later books include feats that reduce casting time or increase duration though.

 

[Ahglock]

I can accept the possibility that such plans might exist. I can also accept the possibility that such plans might not exist. Until I get some evidence, however, I cannot take either possibility as actual truth. Given that scry durations being too short would warrant the creation of a house rule, burden of proof falls to the claims of the existence of such plans.

The reason I've been asking for specific examples is that one of the most straightforward ways to prove something can exist is to create or identify an example of it. I would happily accept other proofs, should those be easier to provide.

Okay, how about virtually every campaign i have made when dealing with a villain who was more than a one shot.

Every BBEG in my games has an overall goal, sub goals, and multiple plans in order to reach those goals and plans. Each plan frequently has multiple parts and frequently has distractions built into it.

So if you ask what is mr big planing, you might get he's sending fat tony over to the lucky duck tavern to burn it down. And hooray your players are there to stop Mr. Bigs distraction which is well away from his actual target.

Or you find out the other end the overarching goal. What is Mr. Bigs plan, "to overthrow the kingdom" great..I now know what I already knew.

 

[theNater]

One thought I had would be in a scenario where one of the PCs or a NPC dear to the group was placed on trial (for any reason, lets say its a corrupt judicial system).

The PCs are generally based and friends of the kingdom in question so would not aggressively act against its people nor would they try and sneak into a well guarded courtroom/jury room.

Scry would allow them to 'listen in' to the Jury or the Judge and perhaps uncover that its all a setup to manipulate the PCs and that their friend will be executed after being certain to be found guilty.

This point it gives the PCs the information that they would not normally get (Oracle might give the verdict but not the motives behind it) plus players would legitimately know when to use the Scry because there would be a specific time the jurors would be deliberating.

Not sure you would be able to pull that info in 18 seconds rather than one hour.

I like this, but I'm not sure why Consult Oracle fails. What does the oracle say in response to the questions "why was this person charged with this crime" or "why was this person found guilty"? These are both valid questions to put to the oracles.