Are Superhero films dying?

[Clint_L]

2) I think it is understated just how much the franchise rested on the charisma of its two leading characters: Robert Downey Jr's Iron Man/Tony Stark and Chris Evans' Captain America. I like Anthony Mackie, but his version of Cap is just not as interesting or magnetic as Evans' character. And of course Downey was so central to everything, his wit and ability to bridge the absurd and serious second to none. He was and is irreplaceable. To a lesser extent this was true of Scarlett Johansson's Black Widow, who while not carrying the films like Evans or Downey, at least expressed a distinct vibe that potentized every scene she was in.

Couldn't agree more. And per my earlier point, the Infinity Saga worked as well as it did because it was built around the intersecting character arcs of these two fundamental and brilliantly portrayed characters. End Game pays off because we see the culminating stories of a fundamentally selfish man who learns to enough to commit the ultimate selfless act, and a fundamentally selfless man who finally earns the right to make one selfish choice.

The Multiverse Saga, such as it is thus far, seems to be more interested in the setting than the characters.

 

[MarkB]

Couldn't agree more. And per my earlier point, the Infinity Saga worked as well as it did because it was built around the intersecting character arcs of these two fundamental and brilliantly portrayed characters. End Game pays off because we see the culminating stories of a fundamentally selfish man who learns to enough to commit the ultimate selfless act, and a fundamentally selfless man who finally earns the right to make one selfish choice.

The Multiverse Saga, such as it is thus far, seems to be more interested in the setting than the characters.

Yeah, I think it's overstating it to say that the leading actors from the Avengers saga were so great that nobody could replace them, but it's certainly true that nobody did replace them.

For some reason Marvel just didn't follow up on its successful strategy of establishing a core of great characters and weaving stories around them. And what they did instead just hasn't worked for them.

 

[Ryujin]

Yeah, I think it's overstating it to say that the leading actors from the Avengers saga were so great that nobody could replace them, but it's certainly true that nobody did replace them.

For some reason Marvel just didn't follow up on its successful strategy of establishing a core of great characters and weaving stories around them. And what they did instead just hasn't worked for them.

I think it's just that they had a plan and stuck to it. Phase One was introduction to the characters. From Phase Two, onward, was using those characters. I don't think that they considered that they would need to do a constant cycle of introduce, then use.

 

[MarkB]

I think it's just that they had a plan and stuck to it. Phase One was introduction to the characters. From Phase Two, onward, was using those characters. I don't think that they considered that they would need to do a constant cycle of introduce, then use.

Yeah, but they stopped using most of those characters after Endgame. There was no longer a core cast, nor even the concept of a core storyline except in the very broadest strokes.

 

[zedturtle]

1) Marvel seemingly doesn't understand that quantity cannot replace quality. From what I've seen and read, the quality of almost everything dipped substantially after Endgame, and replaced with--as the quote above says--a deluge of shows. Formula ruled over innovation, and we got more wow-zap! while even the CGI dipped to pre-2010ish "This is obviously CGI" levels.

I think this is a fair criticism, but with the drek has also been some standouts, most notably Iman Vellani in Ms. Marvel. I can't wait to see her in the movie in a few days, and her enthusiasm for the MCU is infectious.

2) I think it is understated just how much the franchise rested on the charisma of its two leading characters: Robert Downey Jr's Iron Man/Tony Stark and Chris Evans' Captain America. I like Anthony Mackie, but his version of Cap is just not as interesting or magnetic as Evans' character. And of course Downey was so central to everything, his wit and ability to bridge the absurd and serious second to none. He was and is irreplaceable. To a lesser extent this was true of Scarlett Johansson's Black Widow, who while not carrying the films like Evans or Downey, at least expressed a distinct vibe that potentized every scene she was in.

I can't yet judge Mackie's Cap, since we haven't seen him carry a movie yet. But his Disney+ series was not afraid to confront some hard truths about America, and I liked those parts. I was very disappointed that one of the other plots did not get touched at all in Secret Invasion.

3) And of course the death of Chadwick Boseman didn't help (May he RIP). While he didn't have the clever humor of Downey or the preternatural heroism of Evans, he had his own brand of charisma that would have made him a centerpiece of the new era of Marvel. And no one else could carry the torch. Let's be honest: Brie Larson is just not very likable, at least not as a superhero. I remember first seeing her back in 2009 with United States of Tara and thinking "this young actress has a future." This was more than fulfilled by 2015's Room. But then she turned that rise to mainstream success into (unfortunately) action stardom, and the promise actualized in Room withered. To some extent, I think the same is true of Elizabeth Olsen: from Indie actress to if she just focuses really hard and gets over her demons, she can defeat anyone. Not to mention that both Captain Marvel and Scarlet Witch have the same "More power than personality" problem. And while Tom Holland's "Golly, gee" was endearing at first, it didn't really develop. Similarly with Chris Hemsworth's Thor and Mark Ruffalo's Hulk: great as secondary characters, but they just don't work as the leading heroes. So we were left with a host of lesser heirs and one-noters for leading roles, with no heavy-hitters carrying the torch of Marvel-style heroism. Just MHO, of course.

Boseman was amazing and his loss really brought down Wakanda Forever. If he had made it, I think he could have carried the MCU after Evans and Downey.

So it may boil down to that phrase: more power than personality. And this in different variations: more cgi extravaganzas than meaningful personal dynamics; campy humor that peaked back with "That guy's playing Galaga" and tried to keep squeezing juice form the same dried up lemon for another decade. And of course characters that became more and more powerful, but less and less interesting.

What I think Marvel needs more than anything are specific personalities to center the franchise on. Story is important, of course, but you need those characters. It doesn't have to be Downey's Stark or Evans' Cap, but they really need to hit it out of the park with the actors who play the Fantastic Four, or whomever the baton is being passed to.

I think there's a chance, if they find the right choices for Fantastic Four, and utilize what they've got with Vellani, Mackie, Rudd, and whoever else wants to keep going. Only time will tell.

 

[Kaodi]

In a few days we should be seeing whether Avenger is, in fact, fit to be a leader in the Avengers. If she is not that will be a huge sign that the Marvel plan for Phase B (4,5,6) was just not that good. I imagine one way she should do that is to show how she leads the Marvels.

On the other hand I am not sure how T'Challa would have panned out as an actual leader of the Avengers. He would always have stood apart due to his role as King of Wakanda. And the politics of shouting "king, king, king" over an over would have gotten worse over time. This is the modern world, not Middle Earth. I just hope the new Captain America is not held back overmuch by only having one movie, because Sam Wilson has the chops.

 

[Ryujin]

Yeah, but they stopped using most of those characters after Endgame. There was no longer a core cast, nor even the concept of a core storyline except in the very broadest strokes.

Yeah, that's why I mentioned they might not have realized they needed to continue the cycle.

 

[Clint_L]

In a few days we should be seeing whether Avenger is, in fact, fit to be a leader in the Avengers. If she is not that will be a huge sign that the Marvel plan for Phase B (4,5,6) was just not that good. I imagine one way she should do that is to show how she leads the Marvels.

On the other hand I am not sure how T'Challa would have panned out as an actual leader of the Avengers. He would always have stood apart due to his role as King of Wakanda. And the politics of shouting "king, king, king" over an over would have gotten worse over time. This is the modern world, not Middle Earth. I just hope the new Captain America is not held back overmuch by only having one movie, because Sam Wilson has the chops.

He has the chops in other roles, for sure, but I'm not seeing it with Sam Mackie's version of Captain America. Then again, I thought FaWS was pretty mediocre, so that might be a writing issue. I also agree that Brie Larson's Captain Marvel is a bit lacking in charisma. Of the new characters, I loved Simu Liu's Shang Chi and Vellani's Ms. Marvel. Hailee Seinfeld as new Hawkeye is great.

Actually, I know who I would pick to lead the new team: Florence Pugh's Black Widow.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I think part of the problem that can't be ignored is that they had a few perfect storms of character and actor early on, and some of the characters they have left to work with aren't going to easily carry movies no matter how good an actor you get for them. Iron Man was a big risk, but it worked because the character has a lot of nuance and Downey captured pretty much all of it; Captain America the same thing with Chris Evans. But a lot of Marvel's best characters were walled off from use in the MCU for a long time. I personally think some of the above underestimates how well Tom Holland has projected Spider-Man (probably the single most recognizable Marvel Hero for the public as a whole), but he's also detached from the rest of the MCU to a certain extent. If you view the success of the MCU as a whole being dependent on construction an Avengers team, they just have a harder row to hoe now, and that's got as much to do with characters as actors.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think they are suffering from everything being a Potentially Universe ending tragedy. 1st time it's scary. 2nd time it's serious but then it's just plain old business as usual which creates this coginitive disconnect. Like Loki, entire alternate timelines being wiped out, google's of beings and it just seems all samey boring stuff that you should care about but it really doesn't mean anything because as soon as they fix that it'll be something else that's destroying the universe. Till they figure that out they'll continue to slip.

I bellieve that is a trap the writers seem to fall into, thinking they must always raise the stakes. That is not why superhero movies succeed or fail. What really matters is that the story and the characters remain compelling. There must be something that we can relate to. Destroying universes or whatever isn't something reletable at all. Doesn't mean you can't use it, but it must really be just a backdrop to something much more "personal" to the characters.

Endgame worked because it also had these strong character moments (despite a gigantic cast!). We cared about Thanos killing his daughter to accomplish his goals, or this Stardude guy responding to the realization that is what happened, or Tony seeing his protegé Spiderman go to dust because these people had relationships established in this or previous movies. That also half the universe was going with them didn't actually matter that much for our investment, it matters that we saw what it did to the people we cared about!

Well, at least that's what I think.

Edit: I also think that fits with what others saying about how important strong leads are. They are the people we care about. We must believe and care about their struggles. It might be what ruined the DC attempts at their movie universe, they never really managed to establish these characters (even though undoubtedly they had found characters and actors that could have done it. But not in the type of movies they did.)