Are weapon mastery feats intended to be *class-specific* multiclass feats?

[CovertOps]

I second what the good Doctor said.

 

[twilsemail]

Wrong. A Fighter draws his power from Martial power source, a Bard draws power from the Arcane power source. "A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass feat counts as a member of that class" is not the same as counting as that class' power source. I don't think there was ever any clarification on whether or not you pick up access to the new power source when you multiclass. It was only in Martial Power and the DDI articles that they actually started doing things by power source, so it's still kind of a new thing.

Is there anything in the PHB about picking up the power source when you multiclass? Or is there anything that CS has said on the subject?

I completely agree with half of this. You do not gain a power source, at the moment, when taking a multiclass feat. There are certainly things that require a power source to qualify. I do not agree that the Weapon Training feats are among them. The word class is used not Power Source. When I'm home and can email CS I'll do so, unless someone has done so already.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

I completely agree with half of this. You do not gain a power source, at the moment, when taking a multiclass feat. There are certainly things that require a power source to qualify. I do not agree that the Weapon Training feats are among them. The word class is used not Power Source. When I'm home and can email CS I'll do so, unless someone has done so already.

I'm not necessarily saying that they won't, just that we need clarification to say that they do. Please post whatever response you get from CS, as it would help to illuminate this issue.

 

[Artoomis]

Wrong. A Fighter draws his power from Martial power source, a Bard draws power from the Arcane power source. "A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass feat counts as a member of that class" is not the same as counting as that class' power source. I don't think there was ever any clarification on whether or not you pick up access to the new power source when you multiclass. It was only in Martial Power and the DDI articles that they actually started doing things by power source, so it's still kind of a new thing.

Is there anything in the PHB about picking up the power source when you multiclass? Or is there anything that CS has said on the subject?

Repeating the requirement for clarification:

"...any martial class"

Think about it. "any martial class" is less restrictive than listing, for example, "fighter or rogue." Further, since when you multiclass into fighter you are a fighter as far as feat selection is concerened, so therefore you are[/b[]/i] a martial class and qualify for the feat.

"...any martial class" is simply an easy way to say, well, any martial class - not necessarily a character with unrestricted access to the martial power for any reason.

 

[Artoomis]

Whip Training’s requirements are as follows; Prerequisites: Dex 13, any martial class

Page 208 of the 4e PHB says “A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for taking other feats and qualifying for paragon paths.”

Fighter is a Martial class, and as such the Bard multiclassing into fighter should qualify for Whip Training.

Agreed. Yep - it really is this easy.

 

[CovertOps]

Agreed. Yep - it really is this easy.

This falls into the same design space problem that they have with "attack". Does attack mean each time you roll a d20 or a use of a single power such as Twin Strike? The preceeding is not meant to be answered as that has been discussed to death here in other threads and I don't want to turn this thread into a debate about that. I simply use it as an example of how WoTC has consistantly used the same words to have different meanings in different contexts and how that multi-use takes a simple phrase and makes it complicated by blurring the definition.

I don't like the use of "any martial class" when Martial is a power source. It blurs the definition of both martial AND class. There is NO martial class per se, there are only classes with the martial power source. If they had said "any class with the martial power source" then I would not even blink and agree with you. The other possible intent was "anyone with the Martial power source". If this is what was intended then getting a Multiclass feat won't get you this power/feat/whatever.

At this point I view this as a wait and see via CS responses or even errata.

 

[Artoomis]

Here is the answer

From Gleemax community:

Re: Multiclass - Would I be a 'martial class'?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I got this reply to your specific question:
Yes, you would be able to select those feats where "any martial class" is required. I will pass this along to the Character Builder team.

And so we have closure - I hope. Thanks Nimrand for your persistency.

 

[Starfox]

I'm of the opinion that you can have both a weapon mastery path and be multiclassed in another class. Multiclassing in a martial class does qualify you for weapon mastery paths.

What makes these feats multiclass feats is that they use the same power exchanges as multiclass feats do, not that they make up their own separate mini-class.

My take is that you can only exchange one each of daily attack, encounter attack, and Utility power. Thus, if you have both a multiclass and a weapon mastery path, you can exchange one of each for either a multiclass power or a weapon mastery power, but you cannot do both.

This is not what the rues say (they are mum on the subject), but it is how I would play it. I also play the bard this way - I don't want my bards to give up ALL their bard powers.

 

[Mithreinmaethor]

Anyone cane take the feat to use the weapon. But only the Martial characters can receive the intensive training to use the weapon and its special attacks and effects etc. Thats how we look at it

 

[Artoomis]

I'm of the opinion that you can have both a weapon mastery path and be multiclassed in another class. ...My take is that you can only exchange one each of daily attack, encounter attack, and Utility power. Thus, if you have both a multiclass and a weapon mastery path, you can exchange one of each for either a multiclass power or a weapon mastery power, but you cannot do both.

This is not what the rues say...

You are quite right, that's not what the rules say. But... I think this discussion is about understanding what the rules actually say, as interpreted by WotC.

The answer seems clear.

1. The weapon mastery paths start with a multiclass feat, thus only martial classes or a Bard who multiclasses into a martial class may take the entry feat that start the feat chain.

2. If you are both multclassed and have weapon mastery (and only a bard can do this by the rules as they exist today - well, once PHBII comes out that is ), you can take as many of the power-swapping feats (up to six, total) as you want . Indeed, you coudl do this if you multiclass into more than one class. This is what bards are able to do. It's their schtick.

If you want to discuss how you will run this using your own rules, may I humbly suggest you take that discussion to "4e Fan Creations and House Rules."