Armor max dex -> dex penalty

[ValhallaGH]

You always have the option of simply removing Maximum Dexterity from armors. All armors would effectively have a Max Dex infinity.

Then characters are limited by proficiency, weight, cost, and availability.
Heck, then you could just redo armor as:
Light +2 AC, -1 check, 15 lbs.
Medium +5 AC, -3 check, 30 lbs.
Heavy +8 AC, -5 check, 50 lbs.
For appearance, players can use whatever they want (or what the DM tells them) for the appearance of the armor.


Good luck.

 

[Kerrick]

RAW Chainmail sucks. By the time you can afford it, you can also afford the (simply better) breastplate.

Your breastplate is about as good as Padded armor. The only people looking at it are proficient with heavy armor, have a Dex of 13 or less, and can't afford a good heavy armor.

With Dex penalty instead of max Dex, your Dex score doesn't really matter - if you're proficient with heavy armor and have a good Dex, that would still be a viable choice (moreso than the heavier armors, anyway). Granted, you'd need 19 Dex to take advantage of it, but it is there.

That's the problem with the armor system, though - players will generally avoid the lightest armor in any given category if they can afford better, unless they have to wear it (druids and hide). There isn't much to be done about that, short of making all armors in a category the same, and I think we can agree that that's a really dumb idea.

Gongratulations, you've made chainmail significantly better than the breastplate.

Is that sarcasm or an honest compliment? I'm thinking the former.


Getting back on topic...

Another topic is removing arcane spell failure. Kerrick had some ideas about making armor check penalty effect more skills; specifically Concentration and Spellcraft.

Just Concentration.

This would hinder spellcasters and would, in addition to needing the armor profs to begin with, make a trade-off still exist between easily casting and tanking out in heavy armor. I'd actually stiffen armor check as well so make it more meaningful.

I dunno about that... have you ever seen someone in plate armor? I have - you can move around pretty well in it. Supposedly you could even swim in it, though I find that a little hard to believe.

Armor, especially Medium and Heavy armor, should be both more protective and have some slightly sharper drawbacks. I'm thinking of lumping shield profs in with armor. As somone else said, I'd remove the Cleric's hevay armor prof- so Fighter and Paladin are the only two basee 11 core classes with heavy armor prof. I mean, a fighter type wearing fullplate should be more imposing as to just how damn armored he is

Not a bad idea, on both counts - I limited clerics to Medium armor. One thing you could also consider is tweaking the shield AC bonuses like so:

Buckler: +1
Light shield: +2
Heavy shield +3
Tower shield: +5

This adds an actual tradeoff between all the shield types - right now, there isn't much of one for the first three, beyond the +1 AC bonus and +10% ASF a heavy shield gains.

 

[ValhallaGH]

With Dex penalty instead of max Dex, your Dex score doesn't really matter

Right. Everyone uses one of four armors: Studded Leather, Chain Shirt, Chainmail, Plate.
To figure out which armors are the best, add the AC and Dex Penalty columns. The result is the net AC increase for wearing that armor, assuming an infinitely high Dexterity. Those four armors are +2, +2, +2, and +3, respectively. In their categories, they are the best armors, period.
For maximum AC, simply choose the one from the highest category you have access to.

There isn't much to be done about that, short of making all armors in a category the same, and I think we can agree that that's a really dumb idea.

Sorry, you're wrong about that one. I'm all for making all armor of a given category the same, and describing it appropriately.

Then characters are limited by proficiency, weight, cost, and availability.
Heck, then you could just redo armor as:
Light +2 AC, -1 check, 15 lbs.
Medium +5 AC, -3 check, 30 lbs.
Heavy +8 AC, -5 check, 50 lbs.

Medium Ironwood - a favorite of Druids.
Heavy Scale - protective and stylish.

Is that sarcasm or an honest compliment? I'm thinking the former.

Neither. You've achieved one of your stated goals (congratulations).
I don't approve of the goal, but that's a matter of taste.

Not a bad idea, on both counts - I limited clerics to Medium armor. One thing you could also consider is tweaking the shield AC bonuses like so:

Buckler: +1
Light shield: +2
Heavy shield +3
Tower shield: +5

I've always preferred shields to use a table resembling this one. It makes the light shield a meaningful choice, without making the heavy shield irrelevant. And that bump to the tower shield almost makes it worth taking the -2 to attacks.

 

[Sadrik]

To add to your armor table:

Light: +2, -0 check, 10 lbs
Medium: +4, -2 check, 20 lbs, speed 30 --> 25, speed 20 --> 20, speed 7/8?
Heavy: +6, -4 check, 40 lbs, speed 30 --> 20, speed 20 --> 15, speed 3/4?

Leather: +0, -1 check, +5 lbs
Mail: +1, -2 check, +10 lbs
Plate: +2, -3 check, +20 lbs

Basically pick how heavy and type and you get the armor.

Shields
Simple Weapon:
Buckler +1, -1 check, 3 lbs, Light weapon 1d3 damage
Martial Weapon:
Light +2, -2 check, 5 lbs, light weapon 1d3 damage
Heavy +3, -3 check, 10 lbs, -1 to hit, +1 Reflex saves, one handed weapon 1d4 damage
Exotic Weapon:
Tower +4, -4 check, 15 lbs, -2 to hit, +2 reflex saves, one handed weapon 1d4 damage (tower shield cannot be used to gain cover)

Remove shield proficiency and make it part of weapon proficiency.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

To use a Dex penalty instead of Max Dex, I think you'd need to bump the affected armors AC bonuses by the amount of the Dex Penalty.

For example,
-- Leather would have an Armor Bonus of +4, but a Dex Penalty of -2. The -2 applying to the bonus (if any) gained from the score, not the score, itself.
-- Studded Leather would have an Armor Bonus of +6, but a Dex Penalty of -3.
-- Chain Mail would have an Armor Bonus of +11, but a Dex Penalty of -6.
-- Breast Plate would have an Armor Bonus of +10, but a Dex Penalty of -5.
-- Full Plate would have an Armor Bonus of +15, but a Dex Penalty of -7.

Basically, subtract the listed Max Dex in the SRD from 8 and that is the Dex Penalty. Add the same number to the Armor Bonus.

I believe that in order to use a Dex Penalty, the base value of the armor bonus has to be proportionately increased to maintain a sense of balance with the core system.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Sorry, you're wrong about that one. I'm all for making all armor of a given category the same, and describing it appropriately.

Me, too.

 

[Kerrick]

Right. Everyone uses one of four armors: Studded Leather, Chain Shirt, Chainmail, Plate.
To figure out which armors are the best, add the AC and Dex Penalty columns. The result is the net AC increase for wearing that armor, assuming an infinitely high Dexterity. Those four armors are +2, +2, +2, and +3, respectively. In their categories, they are the best armors, period.
For maximum AC, simply choose the one from the highest category you have access to.

That's cool - I'd never heard that before. In my case, if we use Armor Bonus and Dex Penalty, I end up with padded/leather at +1, studded/chain shirt at +2; all medium armors except brigandine at +1 (I tweaked scale and chain); breastplate/banded at +1, half-plate +2, and full plate +3. Looks like I need to do a little more adjusting.

Sorry, you're wrong about that one. I'm all for making all armor of a given category the same, and describing it appropriately.

Medium Ironwood - a favorite of Druids.
Heavy Scale - protective and stylish.

Oh, you mean generic "Light armor" which the player can then describe in any manner he wishes. YMMV.

Neither. You've achieved one of your stated goals (congratulations).
I don't approve of the goal, but that's a matter of taste.

Oh, well, thanks then. Chain isn't supposed to be "better" than breastplate, just "on a par with" it, more or less - I want the heaviest light and medium armors to be roughly equal to the lightest medium and heavy armors, respectively.

I've always preferred shields to use a table resembling this one. It makes the light shield a meaningful choice, without making the heavy shield irrelevant. And that bump to the tower shield almost makes it worth taking the -2 to attacks.

Thanks. I can't claim credit for the AC idea, though - that was jsdivyer (I think that's spelled correctly).

 

[Bladesinger_Boy]

So, I think Max Dex doesn't work. Most here aren't keen on a Dex Penalty. What about removing any dex cap altogether, only have one armor per category, and overall improving medium and heavy armors and shields. Arcane spell failure is also removed in place of having Armor check now effect Concentration. A push towards simplicity.

When fighting defensively or using the full defense action, the base shield bonus to AC doubles. Base here just means the enhancement of an magic shield doesn't double, so a +2 Heavy shield goes from granting a +5 AC up to a +8 (not a +10). Anyway, here's the stuff I've been working on.

Improved Shields
While Bucklers still grant the normal +1 Shield AC and Tower Shields grant the normal +4 Shield AC, Light Shields now grant a +2 AC bonus and Heavy Shields now grant a +3 AC bonus. Bucklers, however, will no longer grant the -1 penalty to hit for off-hand attacks. Tower Shields now have no max dexterity restriction. Using that shield-hand to perform an action or attacking with the shield still negates the shield bonus to AC for that round.
Improved Buckler Defence and Improved Shield Bash and other effects have been subsumed into the new feat: Improved Shield Use.

PROF______ACCESS
None.......... Basic armors, Basic bracers
Light........... Light armors, Buckler, Light Shield, Light bracers
Medium....... Medium armors, Heavy Shield, Medium bracers
Heavy......... Heavy armors, Tower Shield, Heavy bracers

I really like the idea that there is mechanically only light, heavy, etc armor and thematically it is considered Chain shirt, fullplate, whatever. No max dex, no arcane spell failure, but stiffer armor check. Buffing up medium and heavy armor means it should be rarer, so now only Fighters and Paladins get it automatically and Clerics only get medium armor prof.
ARMOR_________________________ARMOR CHECK___PROF
+1 Basic (ex: Clothing) ..........................-0.............none
+4 Light (ex: leather, chain shirt)..............-4.............light
+7 Medium (ex: breastplate, bandedmail)...-8...........medium
+10 Heavy (ex: fullplate, splintmail)..........-12...........heavy

SHIELD_______HAND USE_____ ATTACKING W/ SHIELD__ PENALTIES
+1 Buckler .......any item, any wpn..cannot attack ............use > no +AC
+2 Light Shield ..any item, no wpn...as per Light weapon ....use > no +AC
+3 Heavy Shield .no item, no wpn ...as per One Hand wpn ..use > no +AC
+4 Tower Shield .no item, no wpn ....cannot attack ...........-2 to atks

New Feat: Improved Shield Use
Your have trained in using shield for offence and utility as well as defence.
Benefit:
Performing an action with your shield arm or using your shield to attack with does not remove the granted shield bonus to AC as normal. Using a Tower Shield does not incur a -2 penalty to attack rolls.

BRACER TYPE_______ARMOR CHECK___PROF REQUIRED
+1 Basic Bracers...................-0...........none
+2 Light Bracers...................-2...........light
+3 Medium Bracers...............-4...........medium
+4 Heavy Bracers.................-6...........heavy

Though Bracers do grant an armor bonus, if enchanted they can gain further enhancement bonuses or can gain shield enchantments but NOT armor enchantments (ie: so they cannot get enchantments like any of the Fortification, but they could get Arrow Deflecting or Reflection). Wearing Bracers does NOT count as wearing Light, Medium, or Heavy armor (just as it is currently).

I also included Defense bonuses (that do NOT stack with any armor bonuses) to my campaign. Because I'm big into level tiers and 5 level increments (like 4E), I changed the defense bonuses and the way weapon & armor enhancement grow to reflect that. Mechanically, you could just think of it as a free bonus regardless... great for when you have to take off your armor to sleep. Thematically, it well demonstrates an urban and civilized area where not everyone has to be tanked out in chainmail or fullplate to survive and promote more choice for mages and low-armor types.

DEFENSE BONUSES
CHAR LVL__NONE__LIGHT PROF___MEDIUM PROF___HEAVY PROF
1 ................+0............. +1............. +2................. +3
6 ................+1............. +2............. +3................. +4
11 ..............+2............. +3............. +4................. +5
16 ..............+3............. +4............. +5................. +6
21 ..............+4............. +5............. +6................. +7
26 ..............+5............. +6............. +7................. +8
31 ..............+6............. +7............. +8................. +9
36 ..............+7............. +8............. +9................. +10


Clear as mud?

 

[Bladesinger_Boy]

Okay, maybe 7 and 10 for medium and heavy armor are too much. How about any of these?

TABLE A "3 per prof flat"
ARMOR_________________________ARMOR CHECK___PROF
+1 Basic (ex: Clothing) ..........................-0.............none
+3 Light (ex: leather, chain shirt)..............-4.............light
+6 Medium (ex: breastplate, bandedmail)...-8.............medium
+9 Heavy (ex: fullplate, splintmail)...........-12............heavy

TABLE B "+2 per prof"
ARMOR_________________________ARMOR CHECK___PROF
+1 Basic (ex: Clothing) ..........................-0.............none
+3 Light (ex: leather, chain shirt)..............-4.............light
+5 Medium (ex: breastplate, bandedmail)...-8.............medium
+7 Heavy (ex: fullplate, splintmail)..........-12.............heavy

TABLE C "first mixed"
ARMOR_________________________ARMOR CHECK___PROF
+1 Basic (ex: Clothing) ..........................-0.............none
+4 Light (ex: leather, chain shirt)..............-4.............light
+6 Medium (ex: breastplate, bandedmail)...-8.............medium
+8 Heavy (ex: fullplate, splintmail)..........-12.............heavy

TABLE D "second mixed"
ARMOR_________________________ARMOR CHECK___PROF
+1 Basic (ex: Clothing) ..........................-0.............none
+3 Light (ex: leather, chain shirt)..............-4.............light
+6 Medium (ex: breastplate, bandedmail)...-8.............medium
+8 Heavy (ex: fullplate, splintmail)..........-12.............heavy

I think I'd vote for "D". "A" does seem more consistent and would promote heavy armor. But "D" is a safer bet. If I really thought removing max dex or dex penalty boosts armor too much and fear every walking about in heavy armor, maybe "B" is the right answer- but I think that penalizes non dex-based characters too much.

So, whether armor or shield or bracer, there is some base amount. Then, which each prof, it goes up the same increment. Shields and bracers progress at the same while armor progresses at twice this amount (1pt for shields and bracers, 2pts for armor).

PROF______ACCESS
None..........Basic armors, Basic bracers, Buckler
Light..........Light armors, Light bracers, Light Shield
Medium......Medium armors, Medium bracers, Heavy Shield
Heavy........Heavy armors, Heavy bracers, Tower Shield

TABLE E "2, +2 per prof"
ARMOR_________________________ARMOR CHECK___PROF
+2 Basic (ex: Clothing) ..........................-0.............none
+4 Light (ex: leather, chain shirt)..............-4.............light
+6 Medium (ex: breastplate, bandedmail)...-8.............medium
+8 Heavy (ex: fullplate, splintmail)..........-12.............heavy

BRACER TYPE_______ARMOR CHECK___PROF
+1 Basic Bracers...................-0...........none
+2 Light Bracers...................-2...........light
+3 Medium Bracers...............-4...........medium
+4 Heavy Bracers.................-6...........heavy

SHIELD_______HAND USE________ARMOR CHECK___PROF
+1 Buckler .......any item, any wpn.........-0..............none
+2 Light Shield ..any item, no wpn..........-2..............light
+3 Heavy Shield .no item, no wpn ..........-4..............medium
+4 Tower Shield .no item, no wpn ..........-6..............heavy

So deliciously formulaic!

 

[ValhallaGH]

I'd go with either Table A or Table D. Probably Table D, since it makes Medium armors more viable (something I've always wished for; medium armors are cool, dang it).

Did you also drop the speed reductions when you removed Max Dex?