D&D 5E Array v 4d6: Punishment? Or overlooked data

[pemerton]

I actually think the ability to impact the fiction is much, much more reliant on factors other than stats.

For example, proactive players have a much higher chance to impact the fiction because they engage with it more.

Players that have more robust mechanical options for changing the scope of play (say, the Teleport spell in 3.5 D&D) will have a better chance of impacting the fiction.

<snip>

Players that have abilities that match the campaign theme have a much larger chance of impacting the setting than those that don't.

I don't know that I agree with the "much, much more" but no doubt the factors that you mention are important.

I'm not saying that stats don't matter. But they're only one piece of a huge puzzle that makes up the list of factors that come into play when seeing which player gets to impact the fiction the most. And sure, you can say "all other things being equal, stat generation and distribution matters greatly." While that's theoretically true, that's not how things generally work in a practical sense; all other things aren't equal.

I would have hoped the "everything else being equal" was fairly obviously implicit in what I said.

As to the extent to which other things are equal - well, as you know, I prefer an approach to PC build and GM techniques which helps ensure a tight nexus between PC capabilities and campaign theme. I like to play with pro-active players. And I prefer that all players have access to robust mechanical options. So I try to push the factors that you mention towards equality.

But even if they were not equal, that would not be an argument that rolling stats is fair, for my style of play (and as far as I can tell you weren't running such an argument). It would actuallly be an argument to let those playing mechanically less robust classes to have better stats, and to let less proactive players have letter stats. (And that is actually an approach that I have taken, in a slightly informal and ad hoc way, in past Rolemaster campaigns.)

 

[dd.stevenson]

So it seems to me that rolling for any quantifiable element does make as much sense, a priori, as rolling for any other quantifiable element.

Of coures, no actual game determines these things purely a priori! We're looking for approaches to PC build that are fair and fun relative to our RPGing goals. Because those goals differ, so will the appropriate approaches.

I didn't (and don't) believe the people saying that rolling for level makes about as much sense rolling for stats, were arguing a priori--but I certainly have nothing to add to what you've posted, as I'm on board with all of it.

 

[JamesonCourage]

I don't know that I agree with the "much, much more" but no doubt the factors that you mention are important.

In my experience, as someone who's GMed a group that rolls for stats for 10+ years (save for my 4e campaign), it has been much, much more important. I'm not going to deny anyone else their experiences, though.

I would have hoped the "everything else being equal" was fairly obviously implicit in what I said.

It was, which is why I addressed it.

As to the extent to which other things are equal - well, as you know, I prefer an approach to PC build and GM techniques which helps ensure a tight nexus between PC capabilities and campaign theme. I like to play with pro-active players. And I prefer that all players have access to robust mechanical options. So I try to push the factors that you mention towards equality.

Which is good, but do you stop players when they lean away from those things? If a good friend of mine wants to play a character that is less proactive (and my core group has always consisted of almost all good friends), then I'm not going to say no to that player. He's chosen a concept that he knows will make it harder to affect the fiction than other players. The same goes for choosing class / skill / ability / racial choices that don't fit with the campaign theme.

Now, these are all informed choices, and differ from rolling in that you don't pick your stats when you roll (though you might arrange to taste). However, in my experience, players with (sometimes extremely) low stats consistently influence the fiction by participating in the fiction, leveraging PC abilities, and the like. They might have a 3 Str (been played) or a 5 Con (been played), but they're still making crazy inventions (3 Str PC) or looking for some trouble, any trouble (5 Con PC). And that allows them to influence the fiction a lot more than their low stats stop them.

But even if they were not equal, that would not be an argument that rolling stats is fair, for my style of play (and as far as I can tell you weren't running such an argument). It would actuallly be an argument to let those playing mechanically less robust classes to have better stats, and to let less proactive players have letter stats. (And that is actually an approach that I have taken, in a slightly informal and ad hoc way, in past Rolemaster campaigns.)

I agree with all of this. I've actually seen people propose different point buy values for different core 3.5 classes based on what "tier" they were. For example, Wizards were around 15 point buy, while Monks were 40. I didn't think it was a terrible idea, but I still didn't think it would come close to trumping other problems (the Wizard is still exerting major influence on the fiction via his Teleports, proactive players are still calling the shots or making decisions instead of following along, etc.).

 

[LostSoul]

I like to include ways to raise and/or lower stats in campaign milieus where you roll for stats. I don't do it often enough, but eh. That way you never get "stuck" with a bad roll; you can change your stats by adventuring.

"Tricks" are my favourite way to raise or lower stats. Magic items are okay.

 

[JamesonCourage]

"Tricks" are my favourite way to raise or lower stats. Magic items are okay.

Tricks?

 

[LostSoul]

Tricks?

Yup. To me, "tricks" are strange and interesting features of the setting that can offer a boon if you figure it out, and a bane if you don't.

For example: I made a pool that turned anything that touched it into gold. The transformation was "contagious"; if you dipped your 10' pole into the pool the pole would turn to gold and anything that touched it (like your hands). It would only become inert if it touched gold. The clue to this was the floor made of gold and on it a severed golden hand.

Once you figure it out you can get as much gold as you want, but it's pretty dangerous if you don't. (That, and the Elder Brain would try to compel you to dip your hand into the pool - save resists).

[sblock=some tricks]Here's one from my dungeon notes. The room was a museum where all the pieces on display were of moon-elves in various scenes within the dungeon. (The Mystagogue was an evil/insane NPC.)

Trick: Signs and symbols of Sehanine are all over this place. The information in the museum can only be accessed through meditation on love. This is what is holding up the Mystagogue. She is making no progress (progress check: 11). Without thinking of an act of love the silver etchings that make up the museum offer little information; with them, they act as moving pictures. They are triggered by touching the sign of Sehanine, the cresent moon, the goddess of love. If this is done without thinking of an act of love the character must save or be pulled into the etching, which becomes a cursed, warped landscape full of dangers. The only way out is to perform or meditate on an act of love.

The boon is the information that they give - they explain the dungeon and how to negotiate its traps and where the treasure rooms are.

Here's another one:

Trick: The pool of hidden reflections. A pool hidden within the tangled gardens. No reflections are cast into it. Drinking an ounce or less gives a serene feeling. Drinking a cup (8 oz) gives a peaceful feeling, like all bad thoughts and emotions are safely cut off from the psyche. This grants resistance vs psychic damage 20 (lasts for 5 minutes, triggered the next time psychic damage is taken) and a natural 20 on their next saving throw against psychic or mental effects. Drinking any more than a pint (16 oz) in a single day causes the character to lose memories - and a level, if applicable.

This was in the dungeon that held the elder brain, so it was pretty relevant.[/sblock]

None of these examples raise or lower stats. I always forget to use that when I make up these things.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Yup. To me, "tricks" are strange and interesting features of the setting that can offer a boon if you figure it out, and a bane if you don't.

For example: I made a pool that turned anything that touched it into gold. The transformation was "contagious"; if you dipped your 10' pole into the pool the pole would turn to gold and anything that touched it (like your hands). It would only become inert if it touched gold. The clue to this was the floor made of gold and on it a severed golden hand.

Once you figure it out you can get as much gold as you want, but it's pretty dangerous if you don't. (That, and the Elder Brain would try to compel you to dip your hand into the pool - save resists).

[sblock=some tricks]Here's one from my dungeon notes. The room was a museum where all the pieces on display were of moon-elves in various scenes within the dungeon. (The Mystagogue was an evil/insane NPC.)

Trick: Signs and symbols of Sehanine are all over this place. The information in the museum can only be accessed through meditation on love. This is what is holding up the Mystagogue. She is making no progress (progress check: 11). Without thinking of an act of love the silver etchings that make up the museum offer little information; with them, they act as moving pictures. They are triggered by touching the sign of Sehanine, the cresent moon, the goddess of love. If this is done without thinking of an act of love the character must save or be pulled into the etching, which becomes a cursed, warped landscape full of dangers. The only way out is to perform or meditate on an act of love.

The boon is the information that they give - they explain the dungeon and how to negotiate its traps and where the treasure rooms are.

Here's another one:

Trick: The pool of hidden reflections. A pool hidden within the tangled gardens. No reflections are cast into it. Drinking an ounce or less gives a serene feeling. Drinking a cup (8 oz) gives a peaceful feeling, like all bad thoughts and emotions are safely cut off from the psyche. This grants resistance vs psychic damage 20 (lasts for 5 minutes, triggered the next time psychic damage is taken) and a natural 20 on their next saving throw against psychic or mental effects. Drinking any more than a pint (16 oz) in a single day causes the character to lose memories - and a level, if applicable.

This was in the dungeon that held the elder brain, so it was pretty relevant.[/sblock]

None of these examples raise or lower stats. I always forget to use that when I make up these things.

So tricks are kind of like traps that offer a boon if you solve them? I like that. The reward is more than just "you don't take the bad effect" or "have some XP" and, as you've shown, can have some weird and interesting effects (gold, stat modifications, etc.). Thanks for sharing

 

[Warunsun]

My group finished our Castles & Crusades F. Realms game for now on Saturday. We decided to take a break and try fifth edition D&D. I offered to the players to allow the point buy method or to roll a table array. At first I though they were going to go with the point buy. I even hinted I might allow 30 points like in the playtest but with the current limits in the PH. Instead to my surprise they opted to go for the table array and let luck decide.

They ended up with:

• 09,13,13,14,15,17

Pretty decent scores all in all. I was even happy with the announced characters they wanted to run. I think it will be a good balanced group.

• Dwarf Fighter
• Human Wizard
• Human Cleric
• Halfling Rogue
• Human Monk
• Half-elf Bard

 

[jrowland]

I like to include ways to raise and/or lower stats in campaign milieus where you roll for stats. I don't do it often enough, but eh. That way you never get "stuck" with a bad roll; you can change your stats by adventuring.

necro-thread-rez, yay!

I typically allow 4d6 drop lowest, arrange to suit, then one can drop 2 points in 1 stat to raise another stat by 1 point as many times as they want (up to normal cap of 20). Any character whose total stats is less than 60 (as rolled) can re-roll 1 time (and MUST take those stats, no matter how bad) or take standard array.

I also have a standing offer of 3d6 in order, must play that character, but start with "something cool" we work out before rolling - good magic item, massive wealth, noble title with keep/lands, etc. Only been taken up on once - iirc most stats were 8-11 with an int 18 - made a human wizard with the staff of magus (dragonlance version).

 

[cavalier973]

One could also develop an array (say, 15, 13, 12, 11, 10, 9) and have the "random rolling" decide which score goes with which stat.