D&D 5E Array v 4d6: Punishment? Or overlooked data

[GMforPowergamers]

*or as I call it, the "Jimmy got a bigger piece of cake than me, not fair!"

why shouldn't an adult in a group of adults point out an unfairness like an adult?

If I sat down with 5 friends and we ordered 2 pizza's, one cheese and one cheese and pepperoni, and each one was cut into 12 pieces, that means we have 24 slices for 6 of us... we can each have 4 pieces... if John walks up and takes 3 cheese and 2 pepperoni, then mike and Melissa both take 3 pepperoni and one cheese each, why can't the rest of us say "Hey John you took 1 too many instead of splitting what's left?

now if you want to say "Hey jimmy got a bigger piece of cake" and by messurable amounts Jimmy got a bigger piece of cake... what's wrong with that?


or to get off the food thing (man I want pizza and cake now) if Jimmy has an 18 str and a 16 Int on his eldritch knight fighter, and I have a 14 Str and 14 Int on mine... I don't see the problem with saying "Hey he has a numerical advantage I can never catch up to"

 

[EzekielRaiden]

OP: Of course the average for each individual stat hews closer and closer to the mean (which, for 4d6 drop lowest, is 12.24)--that's just the central limit theorem in play. The larger a sample you take, even if it were perfectly ideally random, the more likely each mean will hew to the expected value of the dice.

Much more interesting, and worthwhile, is to consider what the expected distribution of stats will be--that is, what we can "typically" expect any given set of six rolls to be. As it so happens, the people at AnyDice have already computed this, and given a nice breakdown of everything! So I'll just link that here.

The relevant information: Approximately 56.76% of all stat rolls, using 4d6 drop lowest, will have their highest stat as a 16, and nearly half (46.16%) will have two 15s.

These odds are then further modified by the fact that most DMs will be likely to let someone re-roll if they have low stats, and especially if they have more than one substantially low number (that is, more than one number less than 8). While the OP might not, that is how every DM I've ever had would do it, which means that those probability values are going to go up (we're excluding valid possibilities that aren't "high stats," so "high stats" become relatively more likely; the exact effect is impossible to gauge because each table's rules are a bit different).

 

[S'mon]

Random has its place and it's not in stat generation or hit points.

Works fine in pre-3e. Doesn't work with the 3e-5e "2 points of stat = +1 bonus", the numbers are just too big.
For 5e I'm using the Default Array and that works great.

 

[S'mon]

OP: Of course the average for each individual stat hews closer and closer to the mean (which, for 4d6 drop lowest, is 12.24)--that's just the central limit theorem in play. The larger a sample you take, even if it were perfectly ideally random, the more likely each mean will hew to the expected value of the dice.

Much more interesting, and worthwhile, is to consider what the expected distribution of stats will be--that is, what we can "typically" expect any given set of six rolls to be. As it so happens, the people at AnyDice have already computed this, and given a nice breakdown of everything! So I'll just link that here.

The relevant information: Approximately 56.76% of all stat rolls, using 4d6 drop lowest, will have their highest stat as a 16, and nearly half (46.16%) will have two 15s.

These odds are then further modified by the fact that most DMs will be likely to let someone re-roll if they have low stats, and especially if they have more than one substantially low number (that is, more than one number less than 8). While the OP might not, that is how every DM I've ever had would do it, which means that those probability values are going to go up (we're excluding valid possibilities that aren't "high stats," so "high stats" become relatively more likely; the exact effect is impossible to gauge because each table's rules are a bit different).

You are right - crappy characters get rerolled, so the typical range is from 'marginally worse than point buy" to "hugely better than point buy".

I recommend default array or point buy for 5e. If you do allow rolling then (a) do it in order, swap any pair and (b) let them take default array as backup.

 

[Jeff Albertson]

In 5th Ed I thinks it's best if characters do not start with any score above 15 (before racial adjustments), so I use the 2 following methods:

1) Roll 2d8, drop the lowest one, +7, six times, arrange as desired.

2) Roll 2d6, drop the lowest one, +9, six times, arrange as desired.

 

[tom.zunder]

All PCs get 2d6+6....

 

[Crothian]

now if you want to say "Hey jimmy got a bigger piece of cake" and by messurable amounts Jimmy got a bigger piece of cake... what's wrong with that?

or to get off the food thing (man I want pizza and cake now) if Jimmy has an 18 str and a 16 Int on his eldritch knight fighter, and I have a 14 Str and 14 Int on mine... I don't see the problem with saying "Hey he has a numerical advantage I can never catch up to"

With the cake or pizza you are describing a zero sum game. There is only so many pieces and if someone takes too many it has to come from another person's share. In attributes though if one character has an 18 and a 16 it does not prevent anyone else from also having really good scores. But you just list two ability scores. The other 4 matter as well and if he's are low and yours are all 14's then your character will have advantages over his as well. It also doesn't take into consideration the most important part of the PC and that is the player. Players that are creative and play intelligently can over come stat deficiencies.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

With the cake or pizza you are describing a zero sum game. There is only so many pieces and if someone takes too many it has to come from another person's share. In attributes though if one character has an 18 and a 16 it does not prevent anyone else from also having really good scores. But you just list two ability scores. The other 4 matter as well and if he's are low and yours are all 14's then your character will have advantages over his as well. It also doesn't take into consideration the most important part of the PC and that is the player. Players that are creative and play intelligently can over come stat deficiencies.

ok lets go with my 1st 4e game... I had the players roll (we at that point almost never used arrays or point buy) and I had a eladrin swordmage with a 16 str 15 con 20 dex 20 int 14 wis 15 cha and a elf ranger with 14 str 14 con 19 dex 11 int 17 wis 11 cha a shadarkia rogue with 12 str 14Con 17 dex 11 int 12 wis 8 cha and a genesi warlord with a 15 str 13 con 10 dex 12 int 9 wis 13 cha

I can say without any fear of being wrong... THAT WAS UNFAIR... and it was unfun to the warlord, but belive it or not the loudest complaints came fromt he ranger who thought the swordmage out did him...

now to go back to my 2 theretical eldritch knights, one with an 18 str and 16 int and the other with 14s... lets make up some numbers

player a Human Eldritch knight fighter 14 str 11 dex 14 con 14 int 13 wis 13 cha
player b half elf eldritch knight fighter 18 str 13 dex 15 con 16 int 11 wis 13 cha

now is it ok to complain?

 

[Crothian]

now is it ok to complain?

No. If you agree to the dice ruling method and it comes up bad for you then it is not okay to complain. People only complain when the character they feel is too weak. They never complain when the dice work in their favor. If you don't want to take the chance then don't agree to that method of character generation.

In 2002 I played a Ranger that had one attribute (Charisma) higher then the party's Wizard. This was 3e in which the Ranger class was probably the weakest out of the PHB and Wizard probably the strongest. It was an awesome character. At no time was my character worthless or was I just sitting back doing nothing feeling outclassed. My character was completely under powered but that didn't matter. I was gaming with friends and we had a blast.

I guess if you want to sit back and bitch and complain about the game is unfair then go for it. That's not the type of person I'd want at my gaming table.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

These odds are then further modified by the fact that most DMs will be likely to let someone re-roll if they have low stats, and especially if they have more than one substantially low number (that is, more than one number less than 8). While the OP might not, that is how every DM I've ever had would do it, which means that those probability values are going to go up (we're excluding valid possibilities that aren't "high stats," so "high stats" become relatively more likely; the exact effect is impossible to gauge because each table's rules are a bit different).

you know it's funny but I always hear pro rolling stat people talk about "Random is more RP and designer stats are powergaming" but I almost never hear them say "Oh you rolled badly just keep it" (I mean real bad like 7,9,11,5,13,8) and on the other end I hear people get so very mad if told "You rolled way too well, you have to tone it down"

it's why 4e taught me to enjoy non random stats... because if Mike and Joe sit down and roll 4d6 drop the lowest gen 7 numbers drop the lowest and get

mike: 13, 11, 10,10, 9, 8
Joe: 18, 18, 16, 16 ,13, 12

then mike will most likely expect to be allowed to reroll because his stats are so low... but joe would mostl likely be mad if he was otld "Your stats are as high an outlier as his are low, so you reroll too"