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Ars Magica, the Cyclopedia, and 3E

Achan hiArusa

Explorer
I've heard of a theory floating around that the changes in 3rd Edition are based on the D&D Cyclopedia. This fundamentally rests on the more regular ability score chart and the skill system. Of course, this totally ignores the fact that Johnathan Tweet, co-author of Ars Magica, was involved in the creation of 3E. And by statements made by Erik Mona, Jonathan Tweet was clearly in control of the whole process. So let's look at this:

Core Mechanic
1st/2nd Edition: HA!
Cyclopedia: HA! again (though being a simpler system there were still a smaller variety of rolls)
Ars Magica: Attribute + Ability + 1d10 (Simple roll, Stress, Quality, and Low rolls had their own complications)
3rd Edition: Ability Score Modifier + Skill (or BAB) + 1d20
Conclusion: 3rd Edition shares more with Ars Magica in terms of core mechanic than any previous D&D edition.

Ability Scores
1st/2nd Edition: Six ability scores ranging from 3-18, modifiers started at extreme scores (generally 15+ or 6-) and mostly ranged from -4 to +4 (with lots of exceptions)
Cyclopedia: Six ability scores from 3-18, modifiers were more spread out from -3 to +3 (3 = -3, 4-5 = -2, 6-8 = -1, 9-12 = 0, 13-15 = +1, 16-17 = +2, and 18 = +3)
Ars Magica: 8 Characteristics that ranged from -5 to +5, no modifiers since the characteristics were directly the modifiers.
3rd Edition: 6 Ability scores ranging from 1-20 (depending on ability modifiers) with ability modifiers from -5 to +5. Every two ability points raises a modifier by one point.
Conclusion: Though on the surface the 3e system looks like the Cyclopedia version with the 1st Edition +4 and +5 as caps instead of +3, it more resembles the Ars Magica system with an ability score tacked in front. In fact the True20 system looks exactly like the Ars Magica system since it eliminated the ability score and went with just modifiers. The only difference being that the traditional six ability scores were used instead of the 8 Ars Magica characteristics.

Skills
1st/2nd Edition: If used, used a secondary skill or proficiency system. The chance of success on the proficiency system was your ability score plus modifiers. Thief skills still used the percentile system.
Cyclopedia: The General skill system was almost the same as the 1st/2nd Edition proficiency system except there were no modifiers to the ability scores based on skills.
Ars Magica: Abilities ranged from +1 to +5 initially (except for Magic) and you used experience to raise them. Magi started with their age in abilities and all other character started with twice their age in abilities.
3rd Edition: Skills range from +1 to +4 initially and you had skill points based on your character class (and if human you got a +4 bonus).
Conclusion: The skill system from 3rd Edition is much closer to the Ars Magica system than the proficiency system of either 1st/2nd/Cyclopedia D&D

And as a final parting shot:

Beserk: ...While Beserk you gain a +2 on Damage, Soak, and Fatigue scores, but suffer a -2 to Defense.
Replace +2 on Damage with +4 to Strength, +2 to Soak and Fatigue with +4 to Constitution, and -2 to Defense with -2 to Armor Class and what does it look like?
 

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pawsplay

Hero
Jonathan Tweet also worked on Talislanta 3rd edition, which has a "core system" that fits on two pages. Roll d20 + ability modifier + skill. Ability score modifers are as per Ars Magica, although they can be higher or lower for very unusual characters.

That said, a lot of D&D changes are based on the RC, just not those ones. Off the top of my head:
- Prestige classes come from the Companion Set rules.
- Skills rather than non-weapon proficiencies.
- Maximum hit points at 1st level (optional Basic Set rule)
- The haymaker, approximated in 3e as a Power Attack
- Consistent ability score modifier chart (the 3e chart itself with +5 to -5 actually comes from either Buck Rogers XXVth Centurty or one of the Gamma World editions, not from Ars Magica)
- No minimum ability scores (RC required them for demihumans only)
- No separate longsword and broadsword entries
- Nightwalkers
 


pawsplay

Hero
Monte Cook spent quite some time working on Rolemaster 2nd ed, and the influences are fairly clear from that.

True. The idea of pure and hybrid casters, known in D&D parlance as full casters and hybrid or secondary casters, is an explicit construct in Rolemaster. The Mystic Theurge ultimately owes his ancestry just as much to Rolemaster Essence/Channeling mixed casters as he does to dual-classed M-U/Clerics. Rolemaster is one of the granddaddies of the critical hit concept. Armor proficiencies and the armor check penalty is a reworking of Move & Maneuver skills.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
It seems to me that Die + Skill + Modifiers > Target Number is seen in variations all over the gaming world. Unless you can show that it appeared first in Ars Magica, then it is highly possible that he got it from elsewhere for use in that game.
 

meomwt

First Post
Monte Cook spent quite some time working on Rolemaster 2nd ed, and the influences are fairly clear from that.

I was at GenConUK in Manchester when 3e came out. One of the RPGA playtesters was talking about it and commented that the character class/ spell list idea had been lifted right out of RoleMaster.

Couldn't argue with that idea, either.
 

pawsplay

Hero
I was at GenConUK in Manchester when 3e came out. One of the RPGA playtesters was talking about it and commented that the character class/ spell list idea had been lifted right out of RoleMaster.

Couldn't argue with that idea, either.

The basic concept, as expressed in 3e, is the same, but I would object to saying it was lifted right out. For instance, Rolemaster has multiple base lists for each class, D&D only has one.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
One of the RPGA playtesters was talking about it and commented that the character class/ spell list idea had been lifted right out of RoleMaster.

Well, I think you need to define what "the character class/spell list idea" means to you. I've been playing since 1e, and the class/spell list concept hasn't changed much since then.
 

jdrakeh

Front Range Warlock
It seems to me that Die + Skill + Modifiers > Target Number is seen in variations all over the gaming world. Unless you can show that it appeared first in Ars Magica, then it is highly possible that he got it from elsewhere for use in that game.

Mechanics of that sort didn't first appear in Ars Magica, but Tweet has publically stated that he drew D&D 3's central mechanic directly from Ars Magica. To wit:

Jonathan Tweet said:
If you want to see where the core system for the current edition of D&D comes from, pick up Ars Magica.

I can't count the number of times that I've had to post this quote here, along with the corresponding link. It's like people actively refuse to believe the truth of the matter. Frustrating! :rant:
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
It's like people actively refuse to believe the truth of the matter. Frustrating! :rant:

You might better think on the fact that there's a whole lot of information on this site, and most people don't read more than a fraction of it. And, even if they do read it, over the course of months it is pretty easy to forget it if it doesn't come up again.

Do not attribute to malice what can be easily explained otherwise.
 

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