Artifact rules.

paradox42

First Post
Transcendental is acutally +200 (should be 216 i.e 6x36 but he rounded I guess)

That's exactly what he did, yes. Technically Belzamus is correct if you want to use the best math for balancing things at the highest levels- UK, however, doesn't like things to get too complex, so he rounded off as you said. Each DM can decide for himself/herself exactly how to handle it- I, for example, have no problem with complexity (or using calculators to figure out big numbers) so I used +216. That number, incidentally, is of course what leads to 1272 in Belzamus's post (216x6 = 1272).

hi

for example an artifact that reproduce an epic spell

like the soul drinker for ELH but with hellball instead of energy drain

the base price would be

10(epic spell) * caster level * 2000 + 200(XP for hellball) * 100

an example of a bastard sword +10 of hellball with caster level 30

10 * 30 * 2000 * 2 + (for hellball) 1200000
200 * 100 * 5 (for the XP cost of the hellball) 100000
10 * 10 * 20000 (+10) 2000000

base price 3,300,335 GP
cost to create: 1,600,000 GP and 62000 XP
I had rules in my game for exactly this situation, putting an Epic spell in an item- I'm not sure ever posted them here but if I did it was years ago (so a very old thread). I don't have them handy right this second, so I'll see what I can do when I get home.

It's worth noting, however, that two very important things with Epic spells are (A) they have no caster level by definition, so caster-level-based costing doesn't work fairly, and (B) they're customizable, even to the point of getting a spell's Spellcraft cost down to ridiculously low numbers, using mitigating factors. This has to be taken into account if you allow them in items.
 

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paradox42

First Post
How many extra divine slots does a diety get if it gives up artifact(s) I thought it was equal to divine rank but not sure
Oops, forgot to respond to this above... this was never officially part of a book, that I can recall, because deities made using the IH rules weren't supposed to be able to give up artifacts. But unofficially, most people (including UK for weirdo beings like Algol) used the rule that giving up one artifact would grant additional slots equal to DR, yes.

I had rules in my game for exactly this situation, putting an Epic spell in an item- I'm not sure ever posted them here but if I did it was years ago (so a very old thread). I don't have them handy right this second, so I'll see what I can do when I get home.
Update: my Google-fu is strong. I forgot it was actually posted on the Internet at one point, but quickly found it once I remembered.

My Artifact Rules said:
The cost of an Epic spell or power is based on the Spellcraft (or Psicraft) check necessary to cast/manifest it; each daily use costs its "spell category base price" (for instance, for a use-activated spell with 50 charges, 1000 gp) × the DC. This cost is not modified by the artifact's caster level (since Epic spells and powers do not have level-dependent variables), but it is modified by mitigating factors of casting/manifesting the spell/power. An XP cost contributes a further 5 gp/XP just like normal spells and powers do. If the spell or power requires multiple casters, then add the spell slots contributed times the artifact's caster level (for instance, an epic spell requiring four spellcasters to each contribute a 7th-level spell slot would add cost equivalent to a 28th-level spell at the artifact's caster level- even if that caster level is lower than 56th). Finally, backlash damage costs an additional base price × the number of damage dice dealt.

Thus, an artifact containing the Hellball Epic spell (50 charges and use-activated, base price 1000 gp) costs 102000 gp per daily use of Hellball it allows (Spellcraft DC of 90 = 90000 gp, 400 XP cost = 2000 gp, 10d6 backlash damage = 10000 gp). Note that the item's caster level is irrelevant to this ability's cost, though it must be at least 21st since it is a Major Artifact. Also, this item loses its ability to cast Hellball for the year after 50 uses, though it only allows one charge per 102000 gp in the base price to be used per day (and will keep any other abilities it has after the Hellball charges are used up, and will regain the 50 Hellball charges one year after the first one was used). A caster-level 30 artifact containing the Verdigris Tsunami Epic spell (standard use-activation, no charge limit, base price 2000 gp) costs 5430000 gp per daily use of the spell (Spellcraft DC 170 = 340000 gp, 10000 XP cost = 50000 gp, 14 casters contributing 6th-level slots = 5040000 gp [14 casters × 6 levels × 30 caster levels × 2000 gp base price]). Finally, a single-use artifact (base price 100 gp) containing the Vengeful Gaze of God Epic spell has a base price of 61900 gp (Spellcraft DC 419 = 41900 gp, 200d6 backlash damage = 20000 gp). It is destroyed after being used, though whatever it hits is likely to be as well given the 305d6 damage it takes.
Further explanation of one above point; I postulated that a Major Artifact that carried charges (like a Staff) could in fact run out of charges, but if it did so that would not destroy the item (a contrast to standard rules for Staves and charged items) since Major Artifacts by definition have very specific and hard-to-fulfill conditions for destruction. A charged Major Artifact, therefore, automatically recharged itself to a full 50 charges exactly one year after the first charge was used.

Single-use artifacts, of course, by definition, destroy themselves when used, like normal single-use items do. Such artifacts are designed from the start to be easy to destroy, but very few beings would ever bother making them due to the high cost in time and resources spent on crafting (after all, why bother when the actual spell is usually quicker and easier to cast?).
 

Belzamus

First Post
How many extra divine slots does a diety get if it gives up artifact(s) I thought it was equal to divine rank but not sure

This took me a while to figure out way back (for some reason, it seems blindingly obvious now) but it's really pretty simple.

Think of it like this: a deity (or any character, really) has a set portion of their ECL (1/3 if you're going by the book) allotted for equipment, conventionally in the form of 4 artifacts.

So, if the deity chooses to give up an artifact for additional power (doesn't have to be divine abilities; could be increased divine bonus, increased stats, whatever) he gains a pool equal to 1/12 of his total ECL (1/3 (equipment ECL) x 1/4 (1 out of 4 artifacts) to play around with.

This conversion has led me, when statting up deities, to just give them all the divine abilities I feel are appropriate right off the bat, ignoring the granted slots from their template, and then, when finished, tally up the total ECL of the abilities and subtract the excess from their equipment ECL before working on their equipment.

Hopefully, that all makes sense. And sorry for the 200/216 mistake above. The difference is a bit negligible anyway, which I imagine was Upper_Krust's logic.
 

Grum_l

First Post
Hey!


I have a 3.5 Edition question regarding the ECL of immortals, artifacts and their power.

An immortal can have up to 4 artifacts/epic items. For weapons, for example, ECL / 2.8 is the power an artifact could have.

A sample ECL 100 / 2.8 is about +36. Does it mean that one item (in this case a weapon) is so powerful or all 4 artifacts together (if it were 4 weapons)?

I'm confused, because in some posts it is said that the "+36" needs to be divided by four to have the maximum power of an item and in some others "+36" would be for every artifact. In Ascension the creatures seem to use the second version ("+36" for every item). However, somewhere U_K also wrote that it is divided by four... Hmm... Various NPC immortals, such as in the "Post your gods!" thread here, also seem to be built with the Ascension method.
 
Last edited:

Grum_l said:

Ahoy there Grum_I! :)

I have a 3.5 Edition question regarding the ECL of immortals, artifacts and their power.

Fire away! :D

An immortal can have up to 4 artifacts/epic items. For weapons, for example, ECL / 2.8 is the power an artifact could have.

A sample ECL 100 / 2.8 is about +36. Does it mean that one item (in this case a weapon) is so powerful or all 4 artifacts together (if it were 4 weapons)?

I'm confused, because in some posts it is said that the "+36" needs to be divided by four to have the maximum power of an item and in some others "+36" would be for every artifact. In Ascension the creatures seem to use the second version ("+36" for every item). However, somewhere U_K also wrote that it is divided by four... Hmm... Various NPC immortals, such as in the "Post your gods!" thread here, also seem to be built with the Ascension method.

Can you post two examples where you are seeing conflicting results?

As far as I know the sidebar in the Anakim entry (from the bestiary) describes this as simply as possible.

Divide ECL by 2.8 (or by 2 depending on item type) and that is the '+' rating of a single one of your four allowed artifacts.
 

Grum_l

First Post
Hi U_K!

Thanks for the quick reply!

I found a little mistake of mine:

In Ascension the creatures seem to use the second version ("+36" for every item).

I meant the Epic Bestiary Volume One here and not Ascension.

Can you post two examples where you are seeing conflicting results?

A "divide-by-four" example is from here:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/eterni...acts-epic-magic-discussion-8.html#post3157224

ECL 154 (Powerful Intermediate deity or relatively weak Greater god)

60 million, divided by 10,000 = 6000.

6000 squared = 77.

Therefore since we use half the enhancement bonus of an item (which uses bonus squared x 10,000) from ECL, reverse engineered we double it to find the level whereupon the item is appropriate.

77 x 2 = 154.

Equipment is 1/3 ECL. Therefore the artifacts would total ECL +51. Which is about ECL +13 per artifact.

Another example, I think, is from above:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/eternity-publishing-hosted-forum/301832-artifact-rules.html#post5477193

(1/3 (equipment ECL) x 1/4 (1 out of 4 artifacts))


A quick "divide-not-by-four" example is maybe this one:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/eterni...orum/183874-post-your-gods-2.html#post3296885

This is the method you usually used in the Bestiary, for example. Surtur also would be an example.

As far as I know the sidebar in the Anakim entry (from the bestiary) describes this as simply as possible.

Ehmm... I see no sidebar in my version of the Epic Bestiary Volume One. I have v.1.5.

The spiked chain the Anakim uses also seems more powerful. Like almost two artifact slots used for one item. So, its not the common method from the Bestiary.

Divide ECL by 2.8 (or by 2 depending on item type) and that is the '+' rating of a single one of your four allowed artifacts.

Okay. Thanks! Most of the monsters and NPCs using your books, seem to use these rules.

Some other comments, as shown above, confuse(d) me though. (There were some more comments, I think, but I don't find them quickly.)
 

Grum_l said:

Ahoy there! :)

Thanks for the quick reply!

Some days you get lucky, some you don't.


Take rulebook text over forum text in almost all cases.

A quick "divide-not-by-four" example is maybe this one:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/eterni...orum/183874-post-your-gods-2.html#post3296885

This is the method you usually used in the Bestiary, for example. Surtur also would be an example.

I think I see the problem now.

Wealth comprises 1/3rd of ECL when applied.

So a monster with no wealth needs to have its ECL increased by 50%, THEN divide by 2.8 (or 2) to get the item bonus of each of its 4 artifacts.

Ehmm... I see no sidebar in my version of the Epic Bestiary Volume One. I have v.1.5.

By sidebar I mean the boxed text in the bottom right hand corner of the Anakim's two-page entry.

If that not there, then it must only be in the print version. I don't remember making too many changes to the print version other than the header font, but that might be one of them.

The spiked chain the Anakim uses also seems more powerful. Like almost two artifact slots used for one item. So, its not the common method from the Bestiary.

ECL 65 divided by 2.8 = +23 = +12 large adamantine everdancing, ghost touch, unholy spiked chain.

Okay. Thanks! Most of the monsters and NPCs using your books, seem to use these rules.

Hope I was able to help a little. :eek:

Some other comments, as shown above, confuse(d) me though. (There were some more comments, I think, but I don't find them quickly.)

Everything about 3E confuses me now. :D
 


Grum_l

First Post
Some days you get lucky, some you don't.

Lucky me. :D

Take rulebook text over forum text in almost all cases.

Okay. Yes. However, the statted rulebook stuff was a bit vague here for me. That's why I looked for more info in forums in the past and now again.

I think I see the problem now.

Wealth comprises 1/3rd of ECL when applied.

So a monster with no wealth needs to have its ECL increased by 50%, THEN divide by 2.8 (or 2) to get the item bonus of each of its 4 artifacts.

I understand.

By sidebar I mean the boxed text in the bottom right hand corner of the Anakim's two-page entry.

If that not there, then it must only be in the print version. I don't remember making too many changes to the print version other than the header font, but that might be one of them.

There is nothing like this in my pdf.

ECL 65 divided by 2.8 = +23 = +12 large adamantine everdancing, ghost touch, unholy spiked chain.

In my pdf the Anakim is ECL 57 and carries a +17 large adamantine everdancing, ghost touch, unholy power spiked chain.

Hope I was able to help a little. :eek:

Yes, it helped! Thanks!

Alabaster is an example of a being who wields more than 4 artifacts, because overall the 6 items are as powerful as 4 items. Is the other way possible too, meaning to use just 2 artifacts that are as powerful as 4 things?

Everything about 3E confuses me now. :D

:D
 

Grum_l

First Post
Christian, I don't suppose these questions are a hint that we'll be seeing another Quirin Mythology soon? ;)

Hello Alzrius!

:)

I needed that info for my epic/immortal group... ^^

I have no time to create new pdfs. Since some years. And I won't have time for this in the next years as well, I think. I would like to do it and I will do it again.

Since/until then, I (and my players) just use and enjoy the existing 3.0/3.5 Edition epic material of U_K and some other designers (such as GMC :D, WotC,...). During play new things/ideas come to our minds, but that won't find its way to published material soon...

Despite U_K needs an eternity for completing all the things, I appreciate and love any little epic design he finishes. Even if its 4E, which I never checked out and won't play. There was and still is (I think) definitely not much material for high level play... So, I can understand the wish for more.
 

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