Assassin, Battlemind, and Vampire

[SpydersWebbing]

Certainly! (Sorry for delay, was going out)

It denies them power usage.

Why? Because the Power Point scaling for the powers is meant to be that, at the full power point usage (that it includes a half-power usage is pretty much gravy), that it equals a non-PPUP classe's encounter power. Thus at 1, 3, and 7, they get 2 PP each, for a total of 6 PP. So, a 10th-level PPUP can use three full-bore powers at 2 PP each for the equivalent of 3 encounter powers, which the non-PPUP class can.

So, then, doubling the cost to 4, 8, etc, directly cuts their power usage in half. A level 11 PPUP is only guaranteed 6 PP (since they don't HAVE to take a paragon path that grants PP), so making their highest augment 4 points instead of two means they can use precisely one full-scale power an encounter, and then one half-scale power, and then they're dry.

Adding this to the general crappiness that is the PPUP at epic (because they don't get a 2[W] or extra dice), and that would, again, without making more changes, make the classes punitively unplayable.

Brad

Ah, I see. That makes sense. You bring up another point: low damage at epic tier. I'm really not concerned with the extent of house-rules (my books are pretty marked up with them by this point), so upping the damage at epic tier should help?

Battlemind- Mind Spike isn't the greatest defender mark, but it functions well enough if you know how to use it (a lot of players don't) and doesn't need to be hacked. However, why they didn't start with a feature, let alone get a feat, to use Con for attack/damage of melee basic attacks is beyond me. They could really use that.

Please enlighten me then. I've had a Battlemind in my games for the last few months, and he hasn't gotten to use the darn thing once. Am I doing something wrong, as his DM? If I am I'd love to know so I can help him feel useful as a defender.

Assassin- The only thing they really have is spike damage. They have no consistency. They have 1d6 per round (similar to Warlocks) but with no way to Shroud multiple target, or gain bonuses if that shroud target dies. They also have no real control like Warlocks or off-turn attacks like Rangers.

I was planning on fixing that by having the assassin's shrouds represent the assassin making his own shadow a force to be reckoned with. Each round he invokes he makes the shroud deadlier and deadlier, until he unleashes it as an independent being at his foe. Gets rid of the inflexibility of the shrouds, and looks cooler in my head.

Now I love my Assassin. They have fun mid-ranged powers, and can easily stick to there target, either teleporting with-in reach or blasting him form mid-range and also has really nifty encounter powers (Which have been helpful in and out of combat.). The biggest problem with the assassin is how it's meant to be played doesn't happen very often. Preplanned attacks are what make the assassin. While most classes can charge right in and mess stuff up, the assassin is best if he waits for combat, building up assassin shrouds on the biggest target without him knowing, and then in one solid movement strike. However, this only works to the assassins benefit, and most other classes will just want to jump right into combat. Also there is the times when the enemy already knows you are there before or as soon as you find them, or you are unable to get into a position where you have the advantage.
Also, a better damage boost per tier would help.

The d10 thing when you've attained four shrouds should help. Are you saying that the static bonuses should be higher as well?

 

[keterys]

Assassin -
This'll sound... extreme, but my gut instinct is that it's appropriate:
Give them three bonus feats - lethal shroud, inexorable shroud, hidden insight
When the assassin does _not_ activate his shrouds, he deals 1 extra damage per shroud (2 per at epic).
When the assassin does activate his shrouds, any damage die roll for the attack of less than the # of shrouds on the target becomes the # of shrouds.

Battlemind:
Kill two birds with one stone - swap Lightning Rush in for Mind Spike right at level 1, but it only works on marked targets.

Don't know the vampire well enough to give advice.

 

[SpydersWebbing]

Assassin -
This'll sound... extreme, but my gut instinct is that it's appropriate:
Give them three bonus feats - lethal shroud, inexorable shroud, hidden insight
When the assassin does _not_ activate his shrouds, he deals 1 extra damage per shroud (2 per at epic).
When the assassin does activate his shrouds, any damage die roll for the attack of less than the # of shrouds on the target becomes the # of shrouds.

Battlemind:
Kill two birds with one stone - swap Lightning Rush in for Mind Spike right at level 1, but it only works on marked targets.

Don't know the vampire well enough to give advice.

*Blinks* Wow. Um, anything to back up that gut feeling? You're talking about giving the normal weapon dice Brutal x (where is x is number of shrouds), right? That's pretty severe.

I was planning on giving the Battlemind a less tricky version of Lightning Rush, one that only targets marked foes and that doesn't force you to give up your standard action.

 

[keterys]

It's mostly because of how horrible assassin powers are and how quickly enemies die. Let's compare an assassin to a thief for a moment:

Thief will do 3d8+2+Everything with combat advantage and an extra +1 to hit, turn in turn out, and add 1d6/tier & +3 to attack to most of its attacks.

If you assume the assassin places and invokes one shroud each round, he'll do 3d8+Everything with encounter powers and 2d8+Everything with at-wills. So, basically 1 die of damage and a bunch of accuracy less than the thief.

So, let the shrouds move for free. That's just making their rounds of effort not waste. Let them build up shrouds while hidden. It's a niche case that perfectly suits the assassin, so let it happen occasionally with burning a valuable feat spot. So that covers those two bonus feats, which leaves three suggested changes - Lethal Shroud, Bonus when not invoking, and the Brutal equivalent.

The Bonus when not invoking is to make the assassin not suck worse than a non-striker while building up their stack. It's only a partial mitigation, but it at least helps at the start of combat or AP rounds.

Lethal Shroud is basically a game tax on assassins. They did some math on how far behind they were, and made a feat to help address it. It's vital to the class, and pretty much needs to go in.

The not really brutal on invoking shrouds is to make it fun to build up to 4 instead of just burning at 2. Mathematically it's just not a big deal... it increases a d8 from 4.5 average to 5.25 average, only slightly better than Brutal 1, but a lot faster. Let's say you invoke 4 shrouds on a 3d8 attack, setting their minimum dice result to 4. 7d8 attack, goes from minimum 7 damage, average 32.5, max 56 to minimum 28 damage, average 36.75, max 56... gain of 4.25 damage on a "big" nova. It's barely noticeable on a shroud 2. But it's a very "feel good" power that accentuates their primary tactic - build up a big stack, smash the enemy.

Edit: It should perhaps be noted that you couldn't do exactly what I said for one fairly stupid reason - Vorpal Falchions / Daggers. But I've been safely ignoring them for a while, so I'm going to keep at it Which is to say, you'd want to use careful language that didn't alter the dice result in any way, but let you count dice rolls of less than your # of shrouds as equal to your # of shrouds when totaling damage, but the dice roll result stays the same.

 

[SpydersWebbing]

It's mostly because of how horrible assassin powers are and how quickly enemies die. Let's compare an assassin to a thief for a moment:

Thief will do 3d8+2+Everything with combat advantage and an extra +1 to hit, turn in turn out, and add 1d6/tier & +3 to attack to most of its attacks.

If you assume the assassin places and invokes one shroud each round, he'll do 3d8+Everything with encounter powers and 2d8+Everything with at-wills. So, basically 1 die of damage and a bunch of accuracy less than the thief.

So, let the shrouds move for free. That's just making their rounds of effort not waste. Let them build up shrouds while hidden. It's a niche case that perfectly suits the assassin, so let it happen occasionally with burning a valuable feat spot. So that covers those two bonus feats, which leaves three suggested changes - Lethal Shroud, Bonus when not invoking, and the Brutal equivalent.

The Bonus when not invoking is to make the assassin not suck worse than a non-striker while building up their stack. It's only a partial mitigation, but it at least helps at the start of combat or AP rounds.

Lethal Shroud is basically a game tax on assassins. They did some math on how far behind they were, and made a feat to help address it. It's vital to the class, and pretty much needs to go in.

The not really brutal on invoking shrouds is to make it fun to build up to 4 instead of just burning at 2. Mathematically it's just not a big deal... it increases a d8 from 4.5 average to 5.25 average, only slightly better than Brutal 1, but a lot faster. Let's say you invoke 4 shrouds on a 3d8 attack, setting their minimum dice result to 4. 7d8 attack, goes from minimum 7 damage, average 32.5, max 56 to minimum 28 damage, average 36.75, max 56... gain of 4.25 damage on a "big" nova. It's barely noticeable on a shroud 2. But it's a very "feel good" power that accentuates their primary tactic - build up a big stack, smash the enemy.

Edit: It should perhaps be noted that you couldn't do exactly what I said for one fairly stupid reason - Vorpal Falchions / Daggers. But I've been safely ignoring them for a while, so I'm going to keep at it Which is to say, you'd want to use careful language that didn't alter the dice result in any way, but let you count dice rolls of less than your # of shrouds as equal to your # of shrouds when totaling damage, but the dice roll result stays the same.

Dang. That was pretty good. Do you mind if I use your ideas for my houserules on my blog (that's the website in my sig)? I'll give you credit by name.

 

[keterys]

Sure, go for it. Love sharing game ideas

Keith Richmond if you want the actual name or Keterys[MENTION=10881]ENWorld[/MENTION] is fine too.

 

[Chris Knapp]

Please enlighten me then. I've had a Battlemind in my games for the last few months, and he hasn't gotten to use the darn thing once. Am I doing something wrong, as his DM? If I am I'd love to know so I can help him feel useful as a defender.

The battlemind's mindspike is just like any other defender's "obey-the-mark" class feature: You hit my buddy, take some damage. With the battlemind, its actually pretty brutal and IMHO, one of the few marks that DM's will always have their monsters obey.
First, you don't have to roll to hit, like combat challenge or an Aegis attack. Second, the amount of damage done can be truly brutal, especially if you bait the marked creature with a wizard or soft striker. He uses an encounter power, does a boat load of damage, then takes that same amount right back in his face. Makes DM's cringe when they roll a crit while ignoring a Battlemind's mark.

As to why the player isn't using it, are you obeying his marks? If so, then of course there's no opportunity for him to use mind spike. Maybe he's not positioning himself properly, or using a reach weapon?

 

[Shadus]

With Mind Spike it's nice if the other PCs are willing to risk taking damage.
I had a buddy who teamed his Battlemind with a Monk.
Battlemind would mark everything, then the monk would move in, provoke OA from everyone, allowing the Battlemind to Mind Spike everything, the Monk would do his attack, and GTHO then heal up for the next round.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Isn't Mind Spike an immediate action- i.e. 1/round? And I don't see why I'd fear it less than other marks.

 

[SpydersWebbing]

The battlemind's mindspike is just like any other defender's "obey-the-mark" class feature: You hit my buddy, take some damage. With the battlemind, its actually pretty brutal and IMHO, one of the few marks that DM's will always have their monsters obey.
First, you don't have to roll to hit, like combat challenge or an Aegis attack. Second, the amount of damage done can be truly brutal, especially if you bait the marked creature with a wizard or soft striker. He uses an encounter power, does a boat load of damage, then takes that same amount right back in his face. Makes DM's cringe when they roll a crit while ignoring a Battlemind's mark.

As to why the player isn't using it, are you obeying his marks? If so, then of course there's no opportunity for him to use mind spike. Maybe he's not positioning himself properly, or using a reach weapon?

This is assuming that the creature is adjacent. This is where Mind Spike falls flat on its face. Without a good opportunity attack all monsters will run than face a Battlemind (since all monsters are assumed to know the effects put on them). It's more of an annoyance that doesn't go off because it's so easy to circumvent. And unlike a Paladin, whose mark doesn't have a range requirement, or a Fighter, who just stops you from leaving, a Battlemind can do absolutely nothing about it. Blurred Step just isn't helpful in that regard, because a monster will prefer to just run away and take the opportunity attack.

This, of course, sounds useful until the Battlemind spends the rest of his time chasing the bloody monster down again, to little effect. The monster can almost always outrun the Battlemind and, while it does take a penalty to attack rolls, faces no other penalties.

Lightning Rush, on the other hand, is a force to be reckoned with. Even with giving up the standard action a Battlemind can zip around the battle field, punishing people and staying in their face. Pumping up the attack is especially potent. I can honestly say that Lightning Rush is the single most useful power I've ever seen for a defender, and as a DM I always make sure that I think twice when I attack someone beside the Battlemind if he's within 5 squares. The problem?

We have a power being on par with a class feature in terms of necessity. It's a power tax. I think it'd be better to just get rid of Mind Spike and doctor up a new version of Lightning Rush (which I've detailed earlier in the thread), making Lightning Rush a nice add on that, while awesome in addition to the mark, isn't strictly necessary for the class to feel effective.

Sure, go for it. Love sharing game ideas

Keith Richmond if you want the actual name or Keterys [MENTION=10881]ENWorld[/MENTION] is fine too.

Thanks so much! I'll PM you a link when the post on the Assassin is written up (it won't be a for a little while yet, however).