Assassin Preview at Gencon

[Sir Brennen]

Too bad a pirate would kick his butt.

That's why he's secretly a ninja. Duh!

 

[CapnZapp]

Of course you get diminishing returns the longer you wait, but there's never a point where waiting isn't strictly better than not waiting.

Hmmm... okay so its the miss striker damage that saves the mechanism...

okay, so how much does the damage increase then, for the four rounds?

I guess you'll want to answer that for a 25% miss chance, 50% miss chance and 75% miss chance (as the higher chance you have to hit, the less relevant it becomes to hold off your shroud damage?)

What I'm getting at is that the opportunity cost for choosing much damage later instead of less damage now is not zero. So if the damage increase for waiting one more round is small enough, it probably isn't worth the micro-management.

This is of course up to each assassin player to decide - if we have the figures to begin with!

 

[N0Man]

Except that Shadow, the source the Necromancer is most likely to use, will not be in PHB3. PHB3 is Psionics, Divine, Primal. The only way the Necromancer will appear is if it's Divine, which imo would be a mistake, but eh.

I fully expected Shadow to be in the PHB3 as well, and am a little surprised that it's not looking like it will be.

I personally feel that one of the following will be true:

1) There are no immediate plans for a Necromancer, and at best you might find Shadow as a power source in a PHB4.

2) "Shadow" may be considered a subset of Divine (power of evil or destructive gods).

3) Shadow may only be in sources other than the standard PHB line, in order to encourage more "Good" and Heroic play by default, with more sinister races, classes, etc being the domain of Dragon articles and perhaps a splatbook.

These seem like the 3 most likely scenarios to me.

 

[bganon]

Not to derail the striker damage part of the discussion, but did anybody else notice that the Assassin is only getting controller HP? 10+CON and 4/level. A level 11 rogue with the same stats would have 76 hp, not this guy's 64. Also, class bonus is +1 Fort/Will, -no- Reflex bonus.

Considering how people complain about the rogue being squishy, this seems pretty significant. There are some class powers to help out, but the Assassin is going to get smacked around a lot.

 

[Cadfan]

Hmmm... okay so its the miss striker damage that saves the mechanism...

okay, so how much does the damage increase then, for the four rounds?

I guess you'll want to answer that for a 25% miss chance, 50% miss chance and 75% miss chance (as the higher chance you have to hit, the less relevant it becomes to hold off your shroud damage?)

What I'm getting at is that the opportunity cost for choosing much damage later instead of less damage now is not zero. So if the damage increase for waiting one more round is small enough, it probably isn't worth the micro-management.

This is of course up to each assassin player to decide - if we have the figures to begin with!

http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...08-assassin-preview-gencon-2.html#post4891839

There ya go. I only calculated for a 70% hit rate, but I included critical hit damage for extra accuracy.

Here are the relevant quotes

If he has one shroud active, he can do expected bonus damage of .3*0 + .7*7 = 4.9

If he has two, he can do .3*7 + .7*14 = 11.9

If he has three, he can do .3*14 + .7*21 = 18.9

If he has four, he can do .3*21 + .7*28 = 25.9

If you do not believe me, assume combat is 12 rounds long. Character A uses his shroud damage every round. B uses it every other. C every third, and D every fourth.

A will have expected bonus damage of 12*4.9 = 58.8
B will have expected bonus damage of 6*11.9 = 71.4
C will have 4*18.9 = 75.6
D will have 3*25.9 = 77.7

If you want DPR numbers, just divide those by 12.

I guess I should retype my standard disclaimers, even though people always remonstrate me whether I type them or not: this is all mathematical abstraction, and doesn't take into account issues like missed opportunities, temporary attack bonuses that may not be available in later rounds, the chance a target will die before you attack it, the chance a target has fewer hit points than your bonus damage therefore making some of the damage redundant, etc, etc, etc. It is purely useful for deciding upon general rules of thumb that must then be modified based on the situation.

And the general rule of thumb is that waiting as long as possible is best, but that the marginal utility of waiting for one more round drops the closer you get to four.

 

[DracoSuave]

Any time you have a situation where extra damage against a particular target doesn't end your fight sooner, the advantage goes to the assassin.

Assassin bamfs around, killin' easy targets while building shroud on the bbeg. Then, when the smaller targets are taken care of, the Assassin can then go on the BBEG, knowing that he's got all that damage -guaranteed-.

'But why would you want to do that?'


Sometimes you have to. Sometimes the minions are in the way. Sometimes they are holding the levers and controls to deadly traps. Sometimes they talk smack about your mother.

Regardless, sometimes you just HAVE TO kill a minion.

 

[CelticMutt]

I fully expected Shadow to be in the PHB3 as well, and am a little surprised that it's not looking like it will be.

I personally feel that one of the following will be true:

1) There are no immediate plans for a Necromancer, and at best you might find Shadow as a power source in a PHB4.

2) "Shadow" may be considered a subset of Divine (power of evil or destructive gods).

3) Shadow may only be in sources other than the standard PHB line, in order to encourage more "Good" and Heroic play by default, with more sinister races, classes, etc being the domain of Dragon articles and perhaps a splatbook.

These seem like the 3 most likely scenarios to me.

Shadow will be showcased in a PHB. Whether it's 4 or 5 is still up in the air, but it will happen. Assassin being a Shadow Striker for DDi has no bearing on that, just like knowing a year in advance that Artificer would be a n Arcane Leader in the EPG had no bearing on there being an Arcane Leader in PHB2.

 

[Shroomy]

Not to derail the striker damage part of the discussion, but did anybody else notice that the Assassin is only getting controller HP? 10+CON and 4/level. A level 11 rogue with the same stats would have 76 hp, not this guy's 64. Also, class bonus is +1 Fort/Will, -no- Reflex bonus.

Considering how people complain about the rogue being squishy, this seems pretty significant. There are some class powers to help out, but the Assassin is going to get smacked around a lot.

Something tells me that the assassin will benefit from a lot of powers that make you insubstantial, so that should help.

 

[Jhaelen]

Why is it that every thread these days derails into DPR calculations?!
What's wrong with you guys? No longer get to actually roleplay?

I think I need a vacation. soon.

 

[Cadfan]

Why is it that every thread these days derails into DPR calculations?!
What's wrong with you guys? No longer get to actually roleplay?

I think I need a vacation. soon.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

The game has a combat system. Some of us like understanding it. Also, I like math.