astral seal

[KarinsDad]

Only if you're playing a Kalashtar (or some other +wis +cha race), and gave yourself 20 wisdom and 16 charisma, which leaves you with exactly one point to spend on other stats, leaving you with the unenviable defense array of 10/10/17. Any race without a wisdom and charisma bonus need not even apply. Hardly broken.

It's pretty darn close to broken.

At level one it can be: 2+cha+wis+ = 2+2+4 = 8 hp restored and the PC can be well balanced in other areas. 18 wisdom and 14 charisma can be easily achieved via many races.

And 8 hp is easily more than a healing surge at level 1 for most PCs.

As the PCs go up levels, not only will Wis increase (+5 in 26 levels plus a minimum of +1 for Cha in 20 levels), but feats and items (gloves of the healer is 3.5 and then later on, 7 more from one item) and paragon/epic abilities can keep increasing this. It only needs to go up by about 1 point per level to stay at a free healing surge level and even if it doesn't, it's still real nice (considering the -2 to Defenses for a round+ aspect).

 

[Lord Ernie]

It's pretty darn close to broken.

At level one it can be: 2+cha+wis+ = 2+2+4 = 8 hp restored and the PC can be well balanced in other areas. 18 wisdom and 14 charisma can be easily achieved via many races.

And 8 hp is easily more than a healing surge at level 1 for most PCs.

I was more trying to point out that "It can recover 10 HP at level 1!" is no proof of brokenness. But yes, even with more reasonable scores, it is quite powerful, especially since, as you point out, it can actually scale well with level given the right items and feats.

I haven't actually seen the power in action, so I'm mostly theorizing as it is. But since it doesn't deal any damage on its own, I don't think Astral Seal is broken. It's a very strong power for an at-will, and arguably violates established healing mechanics (being easy access to surgeless healing), but from my reading it's more likely to cause longer encounters and overhealing than anything else. It's great for an attrition fight, but it's hardly an "I win" button.

 

[KarinsDad]

But since it doesn't deal any damage on its own, I don't think Astral Seal is broken.

But it does do damage. It does indirect damage.

Say each PC has a 50% chance to hit the foe. The Cleric hits it with Astral Seal.

The defense of the foe drops by 2. For every PC.

So on average, if one PC then attacks that foe, instead of doing 50% of the Cleric's average damage (which tends to be a bit lower than most), he is doing 10% of the other PC's damage. 2 PCs = 20%, 3 PCs = 30%, etc.

In a solo fight, all 5 PCs (including the Cleric the next round) might attack with a damaging attack. That's +50% and typically, that is more average damage than what the Cleric would normally do.

Granted, Lance of Faith would have added +10% to one ally anyway and Righteous Brand could add even more.

But the advantage here is that multiple PCs get the +10%, so they have a better chance of hitting with multiple encounter or daily powers.

So, not only is one PC typically healed for the equivalent of a surge, but the PCs still average some percentage of the damage that the Cleric would have done had the Cleric chosen a different At Will power.


If the Cleric hits with Astral Seal on round one, he too has a +10% chance to hit the following round. So, he had a 50% chance to hit with Astral Seal on round one and a 60% chance to hit with Astra Seal on round two. Throw in a feat like Distance Advantage and have the foe flanked by two allies and it's suddenly 70% chance to hit.

The synergies can add up quickly.

A power or feat doesn't have to be 100% broken by itself to quickly get broken combinations. They just have to be stronger than most other equivalent abilities.

 

[Joshua Randall]

Anecdotal evidence having seen it in play: it is very strong. With Pacifist Healer, it is exceptional.

 

[jbear]

It does seem strong. I made a human cleric-invoker and that was the cleric power I chose and i tend to try and optimise as much as possible. I never get to play, so I haven't been able to see it really in play enough to comment.

I would say that you have to be a pretty selfless player to just dish out Astral Seal the whole time. I prefered attacking three different targets with Hand of Radiance which with a domain feat also deals a -2 penalty to Reflexes. Damage and debuff. Kill before you are wounded. rolling damage dice...mmmm....fun!

 

[kugelkj]

I also play a cleric/invoker (half-elf) with this power... but this character is my NPC (I am the DM)... I find this power is a great way to tip the balance of encounters (without resorting to fudging the numbers) in the PC's favor when they start to go horribly wrong (and they do)... in my experience, my players never use optimal tactics right off the bat and by the time they've figured out who is the most dangerous mob on the table or how to avoid that annoying trap, one of the group is down or they are on the ropes.

It is excellent in many ways... but not broken... I enjoy setting the other PC's up to use their big powers... nothing makes a session less enjoyable (for me and my players) when every encounter/daily power misses that tough to hit mob

 

[mattcolville]

We've had one with a Pacifist Cleric for several levels now and it's problematic.

Going by the normal encounter rules, a lot of Normal encounters become Easy and Hard encounters become Normal.

Part of the problem is that if I, as GM, want to challenge the characters, I have to ratchet up the difficulty, which I don't mind, but IF the encounters become harder, then suddenly the Pacifist Player feels like he wasted his time.

"I made this dude to do ONE THING really well and now the encounters are so hard it's like I was playing a normal cleric in a normal encounter!"

 

[Destil]

Anecdotal evidence having seen it in play: it is very strong. With Pacifist Healer, it is exceptional.

Except the bonuses on Pacifist Healer only apply to surge healing...

 

[Epametheus]

Responding a little late, but hey.

Don't forget to add Beacon of Hope to the things that work with Astral Seal. It's definitely a respectable little heal.

The -2 to all defenses is definitely better than Lance of Faith's "give 1 person +2 to hit that target." Hell, compare Lance of Gaze of Defiance (psychic, same damage, +1 to hit for all allies, going up to +3 if the enemy attacks the caster). I think part of the problem is that Lance of Faith is a weaksauce power, so it outright loses compared to Astral Seal.

In my current game, my pacifist healer uses it maybe one or twice a fight, I'm usually dropping something far more horrible, like bane (target gets -Cha mod to attack rolls, -Cha mod +1 to defenses), on the party's focus fire target. She currently gets 13 points out of Astral Seal - she's L10 but doesn't have every item that would boost it (just the Healer's Implement feat).

I'm also the DM for that game, and what I've found is basically this: Astral Seal will only trivialize healing in battles that were themselves trivial. The -2 to defenses matters far, far more than the healing amount. Though if your DM regularly runs fights that can't outdamage Astral Seal healing, then he's made conscious decision to hold back.

I pretty cheerfully put my PCs through the grinder, since being able to solo heal a 7-person party is what my cleric was built for.

Also, the heal from Astral Seal doesn't actually work for the caster, so no surgeless healing for him. [Unrelated to this, but the crazy aoe heal they added in Divine Power (I ditched Turn Undead for it as soon as I saw it) does not heal the caster either.] If you want to see healing surges get spent, just maul the healbot.

I guess the main issue is that you can stack items to make Astral Seal more effective, and you can't do that for Sacred Flame, which is honestly about even with it (half level + cha mod temp HP v. 2+ cha mod + wis mod healing) until you start adding in all of the feats and magic items that up healing.

 

[Thanee]

Anybody actually played with one of these in their group? Did it seem overpowered in practice?

My P&P WIS Cleric (13th or 14th level currently) had this, since DP came out. Sacred Flame is the other At-Will, of course.

I found it nice, especially the -2 to defenses part (and that it hits easier than the other attacks), but it's really not that great, IMX. The healing is basically neglectible, since it is not really controlled well, who gets it. And it doesn't heal that much. Sacred Flame doesn't give as much, but you can choose where the temporary hit points get to. It's usually the superior choice (of course it's different for Pacifist Healers).

The regular healing powers of the Cleric are far more potent for that purpose.

Bye
Thanee