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Attack of Opportunity -- does it deserve to survive to v.4?

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
DM: The fighter steps up to block you, you'll have to take him out before you can get to the wizard lobbing fireballs.

So...your fighter can block 3 advancing opponents by just moving side to side?

Even after he's used all of his movement?

From my personal experiences sparring, you can't really move freely side to side to prevent persons moving past you.

This is actually an argument for NOT using AoO and using a different mechanism such as Zone of Control (as was used very successfully in Star Wars d20). Anyone can run past the fighter and suck up the AoO; with a zone of control mechanism they can't (and more people can be blocked without resorting to combat reflexes and a high dex).

AFAIK, unless you're really good, you can't prevent multiple opponents from scooting past you anyway- usually the best you can do is give 'em a good smack as they pass, unless you're using tripping type tactics.

IM(not so)HO, AoOs model situations like trying to pass a trained warrior to reach a softer target much better than "zones of control."

Consider a RW example that is similar to the classic FRPG Mage behind a wall of fighters- the Quarterback behind his offensive line. The typical offensive linemen can only hold off a single charging defender for a few seconds- 1-2 rounds in D&D terminology- before they are running free to attack the QB. And usually, defensive linemen are outnumbered 5-4 or 5-3, meaning that some D-Men are being blocked by multiple O-Men. Occasionally, other players are called on to protect the QB, delivering a "chip block" to charging defenders- essentially an attempt to deflect the defender just long enough for the QB to complete his duties for that play.
 
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ruleslawyer

Registered User
JRRNeiklot said:
How about this:

DM: The fighter steps up to block you, you'll have to take him out before you can get to the wizard lobbing fireballs.
Oh, wonderful. So now you can't actually make tactical decisions as a player without having to worry about the DM arbitrarily sticking an obstacle in your way?

I like heroic combat just fine. I also like it when everyone knows the rules so that we don't have to discuss them at every action.

Anyone who relies on mobility IMC uses Tumble or magical movement to get past defenders. AoOs don't happen unless people are deliberately provoking them in order to draw fire from other comrades, or unless the attacker is a battlefield control specialist. IOW, they work just fine IMC.
 

JRRNeiklot

First Post
Dannyalcatraz said:
So...your fighter can block 3 advancing opponents by just moving side to side?

Even after he's used all of his movement?

From my personal experiences sparring, you can't really move freely side to side to prevent persons moving past you.



AFAIK, unless you're really good, you can't prevent multiple opponents from scooting past you anyway- usually the best you can do is give 'em a good smack as they pass, unless you're using tripping type tactics.

IM(not so)HO, AoOs model situations like trying to pass a trained warrior to reach a softer target much better than "zones of control."

Consider a RW example that is similar to the classic FRPG Mage behind a wall of fighters- the Quarterback behind his offensive line. The typical offensive linemen can only hold off a single charging defender for a few seconds- 1-2 rounds in D&D terminology- before they are running free to attack the QB. And usually, defensive linemen are outnumbered 5-4 or 5-3, meaning that some D-Men are being blocked by multiple O-Men. Occasionally, other players are called on to protect the QB, delivering a "chip block" to charging defenders- essentially an attempt to deflect the defender just long enough for the QB to complete his duties for that play.


Note that those linemen are busy and can't really take time out to take a swat at the safety who is blitzing to the outside or the naked fan running across the field to steal the ball from Bret fav-ray.
 

Arkhandus

First Post
Attacks of opportunity need to be dropped when 4th Edition comes around.

There are easier, better, more streamlined ways of making concentration-intensive or reckless actions interruptible or dangerous in melee. And AoOs just don't make much sense, logically speaking (why get more attacks per round just because someone else's being reckless?).

Here's something I came up with around a month or two ago, for use in one of my campaigns (soon as I get the chance to start up another campaign, anyway). I'm sure the people at D&D R&D can come up with something at least as simple and sensible, if not better. And anyway, I made this mechanic more penalizing for reckless characters, which probably wouldn't really be done in 4E though.

"Replacement For Attacks Of Opportunity

Sometimes in combat, a character or creature will have to drop his or her guard for several seconds to perform an action that requires most of his or her attention and effort, such as carefully disarming a trap, picking a lock, casting a spell, or initiating a psychic power. This leaves the individual open to attack with little or no chance of avoiding harm, which could disrupt whatever task they are focusing on as well. When this sort of circumstance occurs, it is called 'dropping your guard', and the descriptions for certain actions will specify if they require the character or creature taking those actions to drop their guard.

Any time an individual drops his or her guard, he or she is considered 'unguarded' until the end of his or her turn. An unguarded individual is effectively flat-footed, and thus denied any Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, as well as being denied any dodge bonuses and haste bonuses to AC. Any damage taken by that individual while unguarded could ruin his or her intense concentration, and thus interrupt his or her action. Any time an individual is damaged while unguarded, he or she must attempt a Concentration skill check to maintain his or her focus, and failing the check means that the damaging effect has interrupted his or her action. This works as detailed in the Concentration skill's description.

Whenever a character or creature drops his or her guard, any other individuals who threaten that character or creature may attempt to attack the unguarded individual once, even if it is not yet their turn in the round's Initiative order. Any individual wielding a melee weapon or a natural weapon threatens the area around them, within that weapon's reach, but unarmed strikes and ranged weapons normally do not threaten an area. Only certain feats, skills, or special abilities may allow unarmed strikes or ranged weapons to threaten an area. When a character or creature drops his or her guard, opponents threatening him or her may attempt to attack that unguarded individual if those opponents have not already taken all of their allowed actions for the round. Opponents who have already taken their allowed number of standard actions or full-attack actions this round, or who are not allowed to take any such actions this round, also cannot attack unguarded individuals in this manner.

Attacking in this way counts towards the opponent's allowed number of attacks for the round, and thus requires them to expend a standard action or full-attack action on their turn, as appropriate, reducing the number of attacks from that action appropriately. The opponent cannot attack an unguarded individual in this way if the opponent would not be able to make a sufficient number of attacks this round. Also, the opponent cannot use any special standard action attacks or special full-attack actions this round if utilizing this opportunity. Normal standard action attacks and normal full-attack actions are allowed, such as bull rush attempts, disarm attempts, trip attempts, grapple attempts, two-weapon fighting, fighting defensively, and so on and so forth, but not charge attacks, since the opponent will have already attacked this round before getting the chance to charge. Any bull rush attempt made when attacking an unguarded character does not allow the opponent to move with the unguarded character he or she has bull rushed."
 


JRRNeiklot

First Post
2WS-Steve said:
This is what Mearls calls a "Mother, may I?" rule. The player can't simply perform an action by looking at the terrain; instead they have to ask the GM if they're allowed to get past the defender.

By hard-coding the AoO rules players gain more control over the game. They can design their characters with Tumble or other abilities to specifically get around situations like this, or, if using minis and a mat, make their own decisions on how best to fight.

By and large, I think the rules-heaviness of D&D is specifically to put this sort of power in the player's hands.


Yeah, well, Mearls also thinks a rust monster eating the poor fighter's sword isn't FAIR. Bah.

They don't have to ask, they just attempt it and the dm does what he always does, makes a call on the situation. Besides, there may be other ways to get past the guy, swing on the chandelier, jump off the stairs, etc. All more fun than 5 feet step, tumble, insert mechanical blah, blah, blah, here.
 

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Dannyalcatraz said:
Consider a RW example that is similar to the classic FRPG Mage behind a wall of fighters- the Quarterback behind his offensive line. The typical offensive linemen can only hold off a single charging defender for a few seconds- 1-2 rounds in D&D terminology- before they are running free to attack the QB. And usually, defensive linemen are outnumbered 5-4 or 5-3, meaning that some D-Men are being blocked by multiple O-Men. Occasionally, other players are called on to protect the QB, delivering a "chip block" to charging defenders- essentially an attempt to deflect the defender just long enough for the QB to complete his duties for that play.

Arguably people would be less likely to run by the defending chappie would be less likely to risk it if he was swinging 3ft of sharp steel around though :)

I think that is what zones of control can represent well - not so much the physical blocking, but the wariness that is engendered. Absolute zones of control wouldn't work well though, which is why I (for instance) allow opposed checks to overcome the prohibition - concentration, tumbling or BAB against their BAB for instance. (depending on circumstances)

Cheers
 

Storm Raven

First Post
JRRNeiklot said:
They don't have to ask, they just attempt it and the dm does what he always does, makes a call on the situation. Besides, there may be other ways to get past the guy, swing on the chandelier, jump off the stairs, etc. All more fun than 5 feet step, tumble, insert mechanical blah, blah, blah, here.

Of course, all of the "other" options you bring up amount to saying "Mother may I", just rephrased. Basically, it sounds like you want to turn the combat portion of the game into a word puzzle where you have to use the correct password (known only to the DM) to unlock the correct action sequence to do what you want.

As opposed to making a decision between throwing caution to the wind and running past a foe knowing he will get to attack you, and playing it safe. Which is more heroic? Asking the DM "Mother may I" or knowing the cost ahead of time and deciding whether or not to pay it to accomplish your objective?
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Note that those linemen are busy and can't really take time out to take a swat at the safety who is blitzing to the outside or the naked fan running across the field to steal the ball from Bret fav-ray.

1) Watch a little more closely and you'll see linemen punching, kicking, tripping at adjacent rushing defenders, ESPECIALLY unblocked blitzers.

But they're not doing it as much as you'd see in a RW fight, because its illegal, and would result in a penalty. IOW, they are trained not to make certain kinds of "AoO" that would be helpful in an analogous situation in a melee.

Besides, in game terms, those guys are probably using their only AoO against other linemen- they don't have the Dex for "Combat Reflexes."

2) The last naked fan I saw on the gridiron got tackled by a BIIIG Defensive End.

3) Its pronounced "Fah-vah-RAH-rah-rah-rrrrrr-VEYyyyerrrr"
 

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