D&D 5E Attunement

clearstream

(He, Him)
Maybe you haven't carefully read the DMG...

So yeah, I think that there are quite a few attunement items in the DMG (and also in our game from the previous DM) that probably shouldn't be attunement items. As a DM, I could go through whichever ones I hand out and say "this does not require attunement" even though the DMG says that it does, but that's too much effort both in trying to determine the utility of every attunement item, and in keeping notes on which ones I modified and which ones I did not.


The game designers thought that a +1 through +3 weapons should not require attunement, but these are items that increase damage 60+% of the time and to a considerable amount in that 5% to 15% chance where the weapon would not have hit, and also against monsters with non-magic weapon type resistances. Personally, I think that +1 to +3 weapons, although rather boring, are very powerful items because they improve the power of the PC most of the time. The two weapon fighter can use two +3 weapons and be very powerful because of it, and still have 3 other attuned items. Other class concepts do not necessarily have this advantage.
I think what you are saying is that you do not agree with the designers' power ranking of items. Some items that you feel are powerful enough to need attunement, don't. Other items that you find weak in play, do. It is interesting, but I think you'll agree irrelevant, that you would characterise readings that agree with yours as "careful" :p Let's call your objection one to "uneven handling".

In the case of uneven handling it is not going to be sufficient to just increase the number of permitted attunements. As some items will still use up that capacity that shouldn't, while others will not count against it but should. Of the replies to this thread I have read, I really felt that CapnZapp was thoughtful. It touched on something that Unwise echoes and that seems simply obvious once you reflect on it: at different times in different campaigns, the effective power level of an item will differ. Ergo, uneven handling is inevitable as it relates to perspective.

Given the inevitability of uneven handling due to the wide variety of perspectives, we would need a system that calibrates against perspective. This would be a matrix similar to that proposed by CapnZapp but further subdivided by your campaign magic level per the table in the DMG. Even then it wouldn't please everyone, but I think it could go a long way toward meeting your requirements. Thus a +1 sword could require attunement by a low-level character in a low magic campaign, but not otherwise. Unfortunately, an uneven handling objection can never be answered completely because for example I find +1 stat items powerful whereas you don't. A party's ability to pass around an item that ticks characters up to the next bonus makes a big difference in skill-use heavy campaigns like mine for many of the same reasons a +1 sword can make a big difference in combat-heavy campaigns (I'm not saying yours is of course, just that it could be a context in which a +1 sword could feel better than a +1 ST).
 

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KarinsDad

Adventurer
I think what you are saying is that you do not agree with the designers' power ranking of items. Some items that you feel are powerful enough to need attunement, don't. Other items that you find weak in play, do. It is interesting, but I think you'll agree irrelevant, that you would characterise readings that agree with yours as "careful" :p Let's call your objection one to "uneven handling".

I suspect that there are very few people who carefully read the list of DMG attunement items who think that every single one belongs on the list.

As an example, in a campaign that revolves around the ocean or a large lake, a Trident of Fish Command has some utility.

In most campaigns, it has a lot less utility than a +1 magic weapon which does not require attunement (considering that the +1 magic weapon is +1 to hit and +1 damage, and the Trident of Fish Command is not).


Ditto for a Brooch of Shielding. Sure, if the DM throws spell casters with Magic Missile at the PCs right and left, the item has some utility. It's practically worthless otherwise. There are dozens of attunement items that most players would want over this.

In the case of uneven handling it is not going to be sufficient to just increase the number of permitted attunements. As some items will still use up that capacity that shouldn't, while others will not count against it but should. Of the replies to this thread I have read, I really felt that CapnZapp was thoughtful. It touched on something that Unwise echoes and that seems simply obvious once you reflect on it: at different times in different campaigns, the effective power level of an item will differ. Ergo, uneven handling is inevitable as it relates to perspective.

Given a large enough number of allowed attunement items per PC, uneven handling is not an issue. But with 3, it can easily become an issue.

Given the inevitability of uneven handling due to the wide variety of perspectives, we would need a system that calibrates against perspective. This would be a matrix similar to that proposed by CapnZapp but further subdivided by your campaign magic level per the table in the DMG. Even then it wouldn't please everyone, but I think it could go a long way toward meeting your requirements. Thus a +1 sword could require attunement by a low-level character in a low magic campaign, but not otherwise. Unfortunately, an uneven handling objection can never be answered completely because for example I find +1 stat items powerful whereas you don't. A party's ability to pass around an item that ticks characters up to the next bonus makes a big difference in skill-use heavy campaigns like mine for many of the same reasons a +1 sword can make a big difference in combat-heavy campaigns (I'm not saying yours is of course, just that it could be a context in which a +1 sword could feel better than a +1 ST).

It also is dependent on how the DM handles skills.

If 5 PCs can roll the skill and a single success is sufficient to accomplish a goal, than an item that can be passed around means little for the vast majority of skill checks. For example, +1 to +4 to one of 5 rolls from one of 6 ability scores with an average 30% chance of success per PC without the item decreases the average of failure from 16.8% without the item to 15.6% to 12%. That's an increase of success for the group of 1.2% to 4.8% depending on which PC gets the item. That's mostly white noise.

If only one PC can roll the skill, then a +1 to +4 can help. But, it has to be the PC that has the item AND it has to be a skill for which the item helps. Again, a bit rare, even in a skill heavy game.


Ditto for saving throws for many such items. There are extremely few Int saving throws in the game, so a a bonus of +1 to +4 for Headband of Intellect almost never helps in the game for saves. And for spells that target AC, the item is less helpful than a +1 weapon (which does not require attunement) is for a melee combatant.


Granted, I do agree that items that boost a stat to 19 are worth attunement. I just think that there are other attunment items that are a lot more useful (and others that are a lot less useful).
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
Given a large enough number of allowed attunement items per PC, uneven handling is not an issue. But with 3, it can easily become an issue.
Let's start with the largest number: unlimited! Uneven handling isn't an issue because we've made attunement meaningless. I point that out in order to suggest that any number that is small enough to matter is also one in which uneven handling is an issue. At some point, if the number matters, I will reach the limit and choose one item over another based on some criteria.

Granted, I do agree that items that boost a stat to 19 are worth attunement. I just think that there are other attunement items that are a lot more useful (and others that are a lot less useful).
I'm not wedded to the example, and the point remains that we'll find some attunement items more useful than others. With our divergent takes on each example we are just adding strength to the principle that such judgments are tied to the perspective they're made from. That's what your Trident example so neatly points out. I agree that a large enough number of allowed items makes uneven handling not an issue, but that's only because it makes the mechanic meaningless. At such a limit you might as well not use it at all. At any limit low enough to matter, tautologically it matters. Hence my suggestion that the answer lies more in scaling the limit with character and magic level. In CapnZapp's proposal items that are less powerful use up fewer attunement slots.
 
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Chocolategravy

First Post
Ergo, uneven handling is inevitable as it relates to perspective.

There is a difference between items that are situationally useful and ones that are mathematically superior. +3 items are superior to the majority of attunement requiring items. The devs did a lousy job. Considering we were told they were going to go and make more interesting items than just a flat + items because flat + items break bounded accuracy and then surprise the DMG comes out with +3 shields... yeah. We knew the DMG was a rush job, but come on, they could have at least tried.
 

keterys

First Post
As an example, in a campaign that revolves around the ocean or a large lake, a Trident of Fish Command has some utility.

Ditto for a Brooch of Shielding. Sure, if the DM throws spell casters with Magic Missile at the PCs right and left, the item has some utility. It's practically worthless otherwise. There are dozens of attunement items that most players would want over this.
Note that in the case of both these items, you could have them handy, then attune them once you got to a situation which called for their use. About to go on a sea voyage? Trident it up. About to storm the archmage's tower? Brooch it up.

Granted, I do agree that items that boost a stat to 19 are worth attunement. I just think that there are other attunment items that are a lot more useful (and others that are a lot less useful).
The Con and Dex ones are definitely worth attunement for many characters, even throughout the course of a campaign (+3 AC & init / +3hp/lvl never go out of style). For the others, they're very niche.

I'm surprised that after several posts all about potions being overpowered and not needing concentration that your post got no responses.

Not that the most ridiculous ones like the potions of giant strength are actually based on a spell. Sigh.
 

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
Note that in the case of both these items, you could have them handy, then attune them once you got to a situation which called for their use. About to go on a sea voyage? Trident it up. About to storm the archmage's tower? Brooch it up.

The Con and Dex ones are definitely worth attunement for many characters, even throughout the course of a campaign (+3 AC & init / +3hp/lvl never go out of style). For the others, they're very niche.


I'm surprised that after several posts all about potions being overpowered and not needing concentration that your post got no responses.

Not that the most ridiculous ones like the potions of giant strength are actually based on a spell. Sigh.

Well, the most powerful potions aren't based on a spell as you said. A potion of flying does not give the fly spell effect. Quite a few potions specifically state "no concentration." I know that would counter what Mearls wrote. We haven't head from Jeremy Crawford yet, so it doesn't seem applicable. What Mike Mearls wrote doesn't seem to jibe with the potions in the PHB. Nearly every potion states "Gives the effect of" rather than casts. I'd rather hear from Crawford on the matter given the very different language for potions.
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Note that in the case of both these items, you could have them handy, then attune them once you got to a situation which called for their use. About to go on a sea voyage? Trident it up. About to storm the archmage's tower? Brooch it up.

But it is not just the utility of the item. These items are boring. Nobody wants them. In addition, if one does get to those situations, how helpful are they really? Does it make sense to attune to one of these, or keep the 3 items the PC already uses. The Trident can use up actions to affect one foe. Out of the 25 aquatic beasts in the MM, only 2 or 3 of them are worth using the Trident on. Most of the creatures are super wimpy and taking one of those out with the trident is overkill at best. So not only does the PC have to use up an attunement slot, but he also has to use up actions to mostly take out low level frogs, or minor sharks, or whatever. Against a Polar Bear? Ok. A bit worthwhile. Assuming that the aquatic adventure goes towards the polar caps.

Ditto for the Brooch. If the Archmage is done to throwing Magic Missile (or most other force effects), action economy is probably leaning way towards PCs.

The Con and Dex ones are definitely worth attunement for many characters, even throughout the course of a campaign (+3 AC & init / +3hp/lvl never go out of style). For the others, they're very niche.

I wasn't aware that there was a Dex one (or Wis, or Cha). But, I agree with your general point. There are the Ioun Stones, but they are less powerful and have their own inherent built in limitations.
 


Parmandur

Book-Friend
There is a difference between items that are situationally useful and ones that are mathematically superior. +3 items are superior to the majority of attunement requiring items. The devs did a lousy job. Considering we were told they were going to go and make more interesting items than just a flat + items because flat + items break bounded accuracy and then surprise the DMG comes out with +3 shields... yeah. We knew the DMG was a rush job, but come on, they could have at least tried.


Lower magic bound accuracy goes to ~20; loaded up on magic and going Epic bounded accuracy goes to 30, a stated hard cap for all numbers. No +3 anything is assumed, but the math works with them on a -10 to 20, AD&D style scale.
 

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