Axanar meets legal resistence from CBS

[Umbran]

As was I. It's a pity that they couldn't come to the sort of agreement that Disney has about the Star Wars properties.

Has Disney had to deal with million-dollar Star Wars fan films before? If not, then I don't think their agreement stands as a particularly good example.

In terms of their policy, I think Paramount has a point here. Fan films are fine. Fans paying a million bucks for professionals to make films? That is less like fans doing something as a loving hobby, and more like paying someone to make movies.

 

[Ryujin]

Has Disney had to deal with million-dollar Star Wars fan films before? If not, then I don't think their agreement stands as a particularly good example.

In terms of their policy, I think Paramount has a point here. Fan films are fine. Fans paying a million bucks for professionals to make films? That is less like fans doing something as a loving hobby, and more like paying someone to make movies.

No, of course they haven't, but they do appear to have rules in place for fan films. That's more than CBS/Paramount have.

How much does it cost if passionate professionals, who want to make a hobby film, decide to do so? They work with professional grade equipment, that costs serious money to rent. They do professional grade effects work that requires a certain minimum in computer hardware, or practical effects equipment/safety controls. By definition if a professional is going to do a passion project, it's going to cost more.

Leaving the current legal issue behind for a moment as for "professionally made films", Hollywood seems to have a bit of an issue. You've got the $50K to maybe $500K indie films, then you have the $20M to $200M films. The $1M to $5M don't seem to exist anymore. They just can't seem to get funding. The latest production by Zombie Orpheus Entertainment is going to run almost a half million dollars because that's how much it costs to make an hour and a half of video, when you're only paying people minimum wage. I estimated their budget at less than what it costs to shoot a minute and a half of "Big Bang Theory", including the talent. A million dollars isn't that much, these days.

 

[Umbran]

No, of course they haven't, but they do appear to have rules in place for fan films. That's more than CBS/Paramount have.

How much does it cost if passionate professionals, who want to make a hobby film, decide to do so? They work with professional grade equipment, that costs serious money to rent. They do professional grade effects work that requires a certain minimum in computer hardware, or practical effects equipment/safety controls. By definition if a professional is going to do a passion project, it's going to cost more.

The fact that what they *want* and have skill to do costs a lot of money is irrelevant. We all have a great many things we'd love to do that we cannot afford, and the fact that I happen to really like Star Trek doesn't somehow mean I get a moral or ethical or legal pass on how I get it funded. A fan film is a *personal* project - that means the funding should be more or less *personal*.

If your funding base is hundreds to thousands of people who toss in bucks and wait for product, they're *buying*, and that's commercial. If you want it to still be considered a fan production, all those people paying should also be part of production - they should be sewing, and building sets, and cooking food for the crafts table, and such.

Leaving the current legal issue behind for a moment as for "professionally made films", Hollywood seems to have a bit of an issue. You've got the $50K to maybe $500K indie films, then you have the $20M to $200M films. The $1M to $5M don't seem to exist anymore. They just can't seem to get funding.

I don't know if the equivalent (adjusted for inflation and production costs for the eras) was really ever *common*. I think there's some natural ranges of "bang for the buck" - you can get some wonderful stories in low-budget, and you get spectacle and best-of-the-best acting at high budget. But that low-middle space? I don't know if you really get enough value added in that range for it to really increase the production's return on investment.

 

[Ryujin]

The fact that what they *want* and have skill to do costs a lot of money is irrelevant. We all have a great many things we'd love to do that we cannot afford, and the fact that I happen to really like Star Trek doesn't somehow mean I get a moral or ethical or legal pass on how I get it funded. A fan film is a *personal* project - that means the funding should be more or less *personal*.

If your funding base is hundreds to thousands of people who toss in bucks and wait for product, they're *buying*, and that's commercial. If you want it to still be considered a fan production, all those people paying should also be part of production - they should be sewing, and building sets, and cooking food for the crafts table, and such.

I haven't said that they have any moral or legal pass. In point of fact I've said that they're screwed, because to my mind it's pretty open and shut. What I am saying, is that the magic $1M limit is largely immaterial. It's merely the cost of doing business these days, especially when dealing with industry professionals and professional grade equipment. The guys at Dead Gentlemen Productions blew half of the overall budget for "Dorkness Rising" on one professional level camera's rental charge.

As to the fans who kick in actually helping to make the production happen in was other than just fiscal, that's not how any of the other "fan-made" productions work either. I haven't done any building, sewing, or computer setup (my personal area of expertise) for "Star Trek Continues", nor for "Star Trek: The New Voyages." I have given them money toward production, however.

I don't know if the equivalent (adjusted for inflation and production costs for the eras) was really ever *common*. I think there's some natural ranges of "bang for the buck" - you can get some wonderful stories in low-budget, and you get spectacle and best-of-the-best acting at high budget. But that low-middle space? I don't know if you really get enough value added in that range for it to really increase the production's return on investment.

Well clearly you get enough added that it gets noticed by CBS/Paramount

 

[Ryujin]

Here's Wil Wheaton's take on it:

http://wilwheaton.tumblr.com/post/141057730914/do-you-know-what-the-deal-with-this-st-fan-film

 

[Umbran]

What I am saying, is that the magic $1M limit is largely immaterial. It's merely the cost of doing business these days

I think Mr Wheaton's article, that you quoted, suggests otherwise - fan films running at the $100,000 mark. About 10% of what Axanar pulled in.

$1 million isn't *magic*, however, if it is 10x what most others use, then I think the point still stands that it is a lot of money.

As to the fans who kick in actually helping to make the production happen in was other than just fiscal, that's not how any of the other "fan-made" productions work either. I haven't done any building, sewing, or computer setup (my personal area of expertise) for "Star Trek Continues", nor for "Star Trek: The New Voyages." I have given them money toward production, however.

And, on that measure, I don't htink I'd have a problem with CBS coming down on them, either. There's a point where the funding is really pre-sales, and fan productions shouldn't be about sales if you want that pseudo-protected monkier.

 

[Janx]

One of the danger zones of the Axanar project is they raised a ton of money and sounds like they've used that money for things like setting up a studio to be a long term venture, rather than "get money and use it directly for the making of the thing the kickstarter is for"

Which is suspiciously similar to the board game case that hit the news "thing that ate monopoly" or whatever, where the guy used the money to move himself to WA and start a company, pay his rent, rather than directly use it on production costs of the game that he was handed the rules/art for to make into a reality.

Given the outcome of that case, and the changes to Kickstarter requiring full reimbursement if the project fails, the danger for the Axanar guys similar, in that if they've spent money on things that are not "Axanar film assets" then they will have that much harder of a time getting the money back to the funders if this fails (which it may if Paramount wins).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Here's Wil Wheaton's take on it:

http://wilwheaton.tumblr.com/post/141057730914/do-you-know-what-the-deal-with-this-st-fan-film

Heh. He called them, "epic douchecanoes". I think I'll use Eric "Epic" Douchecano as the name for a hitman in a modern RPG campaign.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

One of the danger zones of the Axanar project is they raised a ton of money and sounds like they've used that money for things like setting up a studio to be a long term venture, rather than "get money and use it directly for the making of the thing the kickstarter is for"

Yeah, that is EXTRMELY problematic; indefensible, even. To me, it looks like they're using crowd funding with abuse of IP to cover the entry costs in setting themselves up in the movie studio business.

Shady to the max.

 

[Janx]

Yeah, that is EXTRMELY problematic; indefensible, even. To me, it looks like they're using crowd funding with abuse of IP to cover the entry costs in setting themselves up in the movie studio business.

Shady to the max.

The weird thing is, the head guy behind Axanar, is a lawyer. You'd think he'd have smelled legal risks a mile away the moment he had the idea to film something about Star Trek.

Personally, and I suspect for Danny the Actual Lawyer as well, I see/hear ideas like this and I think of legal things to double-check before I assume something is kosher to just go ahead and start doing. It's pretty freaking obvious that if you re-use the name of something from a TV show, movie or book, that you better make sure you have legal rights to do so.

Are people really this stupid or careless? Or was Axanar really lawsuit baiting for Paramount?

I really like the material Axanar is doing. But they've pretty much gotten people's hopes up over the cool factor, while the pitfalls were pretty obvious to someone in Hollywood who should be versed in such business. It's kind of irresponsible.