Babylonian/Judeo-Christian Mythology

[Wicht]

Re: Re: Re: Babylonian/Judeo-Christian Mythology

...I know that there were other tribal gods that the Jews worshiped. Yaweh was only one of many from what I've read.

But now that you mention it, I would welcome any suggested sites for Zoroastrianism as well, since that religion's good vs. evil ideology had a strong influence on the ancient Jewish and Christian religions.

You know, there is a school of thought, to which I belong, that thinks that it was the Jews that influenced Zoroatrianism and not the other way around. Indeed, there is just as much evidence that monotheism proceeded polytheism which in turn proceeded spiritism in most cultures as there is that it happened other way around.

In addition, I would be very much interested in seeing any "proof" that the Jews had other tribal Gods before worshiping Yaweh. (I do not dispute that they at times worshiped other gods, I would dispute the timeline) As far as I know there is only speculation based on an assumption that Genesis could not have been authored by Moses and is a later document. I have found however that such critical studies tend to me self relying and circular in their reasoning.

Actually I don't mean to start a religious argument but thought I would point out that your statement is actually a religious hot potato and perhaps you should be less dogmatic in how you assert things of this nature if you don't want to start a debate.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

(Puts on Academic Hat)

I had the great privilege of studying Assyriology under Professor Simo Parpola during my tenure at Helsinki University. He is probably THE world's authority on Assyrian religion - although his knowledge extends far beyond. Parpola is, without a doubt, the most phenomenal mind I have ever encountered. He could freely translate from ancient Sumerian, into Attic Greek, draw linguistic corollaries in ancient Etruscan and then relay his conclusions in English. Finnish was his first language, of course.

Monotheism - monism, even - is VERY ancient. Despite the numerous deities represented in Sumerian, Assyrian, Akkadian and Babylonian myth, there is a very convincing argument to be made that all were regarded as aspects of the same divine reality i.e. God (intentionally capitalized). This religious meta-complex - which includes all of the religions of the near middle-east - makes distinction between early Judaic thought, Zoroastrianism, Assyrian and even Egyptian belief, virtually redundant.

None of these ideas evolved in a vaccuum: there were reciprocal influences between all of them, and the subsequent impact of religion in Persia, the Levant and Mesopotamia upon Hellenistic culture was immense.

As a Zen kind of guy, I have little interest in touting this point, but the evidence that Monotheism was both very widespread, and is very old, is pretty convincing.

 

[Bugbear]

Here are some of the online reasources I used to create my URlands Mythology and Cosmology...

Assyrian, Babylonian, and Persian Empires

Creation Myths from around the world

Sumerian Mythology FAQ

The Assyro-Babylonian Mythology FAQ

~Bugbear~

 

[Forlorn]

From the encyclopedia mythica:
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/y/yahweh.html

The above is a very interesting article on the nature and evolution of the God of Judaic Myth.

 

[Cyronax]

Traveler, sorry if I came across a bit snappish in my response to you, it was not my intent. The Encylopedia Mythica, which you and A2Z suggested is very informative! I'm overwhelmed by all the details.

I'm trying to piece together the early mythology for my campaign world using Babylonian and other ancient Mesopotamian/Persian influences. I'd be interested to hear from anyone else who's done similar things. Do you find it hard to quantify all the gods in existence, given the sheer number of them in Meso/Persian myth? Does anybody plan on translating to give them stats using Deities & Demigods?

Anyone who's read the introduction to my Story Hour (the link is shown below) will see that much of the Babylonian gods were destroyed fighting the uber-evil god Anshar (sort of my world's version of Tharizdun). Anshar, at least in the mythologies I've read, is not as nihilistic as the Big T, but I thought as a progenitor of many of the gods, could take the role of wrathful, chaotic, and ultimately destructive.

I have the recent mythology pretty put into place. It have a more of a law vs. chaos theme to my world, with the forces of Good and Order being intertwined. Thus, LE Tiamat is seen as a guardian of universal order, albeit an oppressive one, rather than destructive chaos.

My world now has only a few divine beings, all inspired from ancient Middle Eastern mythologies and the like. Only a handful of gods remain, with Ishtar, Tiamat (Manual of the Planes version), Ramman (an obscure Canaanite weather god), and maybe Bahumat, being the only real, historical gods left. A few homespun gods, with Babylonian sounding names, are also included. In terms of Deities & Demigods rules, most of the remaining deities are no more than demigod status. Ishtar and Tiamat, plus a few homebrew gods have lesser or intermediate status. Using old GH lore as a guide, I've made Anshar, even though he's considered imprisoned and weakened, intermediate deity status.

C.I.D.

 

[Wicht]

From the encyclopedia mythica:
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/y/yahweh.html

The above is a very interesting article on the nature and evolution of the God of Judaic Myth.

It is interesting but again makes (and develops its thesis from) the same unproven assumption that the Polythiesm was an earlier relgious practice than Monotheism when there is some evidence to the contrary. He also asserts several things in the article without offering evidence. For example the statement that each tribe had its own god when they left Egypt would require some proof (at least for me). And the statement that it was Isaiah who first advocates Monothiesm shows a relative ignorance of earlier scriptures (or at least a bias on the writers part - as is demonstrated by his dating of the Pentateuch).

I just think, and it was the point of my first post, that people when they post that sort of thing on a board should realize that they are in fact starting a religious discussion on the merits of Judiasm and Christianity. The same is true in addressing religious scriptures as myth (as the title of the thread does).

 

[hong]

I just think, and it was the point of my first post, that people when they post that sort of thing on a board should realize that they are in fact starting a religious discussion on the merits of Judiasm and Christianity. The same is true in addressing religious scriptures as myth (as the title of the thread does).

First, I don't see how an essay on the historical roots of Judaism and Christianity can have anything to do with their merits as religions.

Second, you need two people to have a discussion on religion, just like with anything else. I don't see anyone else arguing this, so I can only conclude you're arguing with yourself.

 

[Moon_Goddess]

How about a rule, whenever anyone is discussing any real world myths, if you actually believe they are true don't get involved in the thread, it prevents people from getting offended.

 

[Wicht]

First, I don't see how an essay on the historical roots of Judaism and Christianity can have anything to do with their merits as religions.

If a persons faith is rooted in a believe that their scriptures (and religion ) are directly from God than attacking those scriptures as myth is attacking the merits of the religion. If I was to start a thread concerning where I thought Joseph Smith obtained ideas for the Book of Mormon than I would be inviting attacks from Mormons (I am not starting such a thread just postulating). The position advocated by the author of the essay is a religious position as much as an intellectual position and is in fact a position that many Christians do not agree with. The arguement of whether the books of Genesis through Malachi are authentic or fabrications pasted together by late authors is a heated religious debate with profound implications into a persons view of the Christian religion.

originally posted by HongSecond, you need two people to have a discussion on religion, just like with anything else. I don't see anyone else arguing this, so I can only conclude you're arguing with yourself.

Well you responded oh figment of my imagination

Originally posted by Darwinofmind
How about a rule, whenever anyone is discussing any real world myths, if you actually believe they are true don't get involved in the thread, it prevents people from getting offended.

That makes such good sense. By this rule I could post a thread about the myths of evolution and if you thought evolution was true you would not be allowed to post. Right? Or would it not work both ways.

And I am sorry if posting my opinion (i.e. that it is a bit rude to publically call a person's faith a myth) was offensive to you. I will try to be more tactful in the future

 

[hong]

If a persons faith is rooted in a believe that their scriptures (and religion ) are directly from God than attacking those scriptures as myth is attacking the merits of the religion.

That's your problem. I would suggest finding a basis for your beliefs that doesn't rely on empiricism. I would also suggest that all such issues are quite beside the point in a thread that's about using myths (real or otherwise) to build a fantasy religion.

Well you responded oh figment of my imagination

Ah! You want people to *PLONK* you! It makes sense now, "Wicht", if that is your REAL NAME!

You should be so lucky.

That makes such good sense. By this rule I could post a thread about the myths of evolution and if you thought evolution was true you would not be allowed to post. Right? Or would it not work both ways.

In fantasy, it's turtles all the way down.