"Bait Monsters" and the "Trained Mindset"

[Varianor Abroad]

Um, Folks?

James said straight up 'Just because Frost Giants aren't in the MM1 doesn't mean that they're not in D&D.' What is this "It's not D&D if there's no Frost Giants" when they will be in there, just in another MM?

That goes to what the prior poster said about selling more books. Bleah. I'm still waiting for the new system to judge, but the notion of "extra Core material" every year plus "randomized digital miniatures" + "frost giants and who knows what else postponed" does not excite me a lot. Other things do, but this stuff together and the trend it seems to be signifying doesn't.

 

[bowbe]

I would think that most people buying 4E would start playing level 1 games. Thus, I would like the scales of the MM1 to be tilted towards the lower end for monster levels. I doubt I would need a Frost Giant before MM2.

I disagree whole-heartedly with this mindset (without any insult intended). I mention it because I happen to see it a lot in all these various 4e threads.

I think that MOST people feel very strongly about their current set of Player Characters and fully intend to at least ATTEMPT to port their favorite PC that they have been playing for anywhere from 8 to 28 years to 4e. I know one of the things I did when I converted... yes CONVERTED to 3e was to convert a couple of my aged yellow page character sheets to 3x ed.

If players can't do that right out of the "box" so to speak there is a problem. Not a small problem either, nor a problem that people will anxiously wait 1-3 years to have rectified.

I know that players in my 3.5 group would patently refuse to play 4e if they couldnt convert their beloved 23rd level characters to 4e immediately. I don't doubt that there is a large segment of the gaming population that feels exactly the same way.

To steal a line from 3.5 folks who bash on folks who play older editions with the "Give me rules not DM Fiat." lets say:

"Game Company Fiat" doesn't make for happy players.

Equally, if I were a developer or game designer, or publisher of a 3rd party company being wooed to help launch a new edition... with say 90% of a finished manuscript simply waiting for the rules to get in my hands and a list of monsters that will be used in the game...and say I were writing a deadline project that figured heavily on using a monster that ends up on the cutting room floor for this edition of the MM... I would be rightously annoyed.

Case

 

[Rechan]

I'm pretty sure it was said that the MM would have a full range of monsters.

 

[bowbe]

Rechan, Congratulations on your 666th post!

To be honest when I opened this thread i was thinking...

Bait monsters:

Monsters you send out to get PCs to use up all their bammy spells for the encounter, that soak up a majority of their conditions, +fate/hero/action points in quickly annhilating before sending in the REAL monster to TPK the whole lot.

My opinion as a life long gamer:

Not including traditional iconics that have been around since the boxed chap-book set... lame.

I could give a whole list of where to cut and where not to but I dont have the time.

I'll simply stick with things like:

Athak

Achaierai

Allip

Aranea

Arrowhawk

Belker

Choker

Chuul

Coatl

Delver

Destrachan

Hellcat

Digester

Ethereal Filcher

Ethereal Marauder

Guardinal's

Half anything.. including halflings

Inevitables

Kerenshar

Magmin

Mohrg


Nightshades

Phasm

Rast

Ravid

Shield Guardian

Skum

Tojanida

Xill


Yeth Hound

Most of 3.5 MM III and IV.

And any zombie that either gets a move or an attack but not both.

Not that all the above monsters suck or are lame. Many are cool, but are specific via a environment, or could be done with use of another monster (or suck LOL).

None of the above are "Iconic" D&D or very usable beyond certain specific set encounters.

Most don't share a historical or mythological flair that couldn't wait till a different Monster book.

Full suite of Giants however? Thats a must. As much of a must in most campaigns as having the full suite of dragons and the iconic demons ready at launch. Tell somebody that drow won't be included in the launch of 4e and watch the waterworks!

Case

 

[Rechan]

Thanks, Bowbe.

Though I disagree about the Aranea, Choker and Chuul. LOVE those guys. Chuuls are usually my "you gunna get screwed up" monster. Chokers I plan on using three times in my current two campaigns.

And Aranea are just cool. Spider shapeshifters who conceal themselves among the population. Mmm. Sexy.

 

[ruleslawyer]

I think there is a bigger difference between hill giants and frost giants than that.

Not so much of one, really. More HD, better ability scores, etc., but all pretty much along the same axis of development as a hill giant. If giants advanced by HD, a frost giant would hardly look different from a 14-HD advanced hill giant.

Giants are actually a perfect example of a creature for which I'd want a monster class. They hi 4 HD, they're basically ogres. Up to 6, they're trolls or minotaurs. Around 12, they go Huge and become "true" giants. And so on. Slap on certain abilities (regeneration, energy subtypes, etc.) as needed with a given CR modifier. It's a thought.

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

D&D had frost giants.
BECMI had frost giants.
AD&D had frost giants.
AD&D 2e had frost giants.
D&D 3e had frost giants.

If it doesn't have frost giants, it isn't D&D.

Mystara had frost giants.
Greyhawk had frost giants.
Forgotten Realms had forst giants.
Eberron had frost giants.

If it doesn't have frost giants, it isn't a D&D world. (Yes, I know that puts Dark Sun and maybe Krynn out, which should be obvious).

That's what I say: if it has been in ALL editions before, it probably needs to stay. Carrion crawler, for instance. I think the idea of spreading iconic pan-edition monsters across a mass of "core" books is a bunch of steerpoo. I'm not one to complain about "money grubbing wotc" but when I heard that in the podcast I immediately felt it was flat out abusive.

 

[Gold Roger]

I couldn't care less about frost giants. And D&D not being D&D, because there aren't frost giants in the first MM? Come on, you aren't even trying anyomre. Or is Scion:Hero obviously D&D because it does have frost giants?

 

[Teemu]

Hey, if frost giants aren't in the first MM, don't worry! Remember, they said we'd get brand new monsters too!

3e gave us the treasured digester and tojanida, for example!

 

[WhatGravitas]

Frost giants important? Sorry, but I haven't used a frost giant in 3.X at all. They're... boring for me. And that's the point, some love the frost giant, some hate it, some ignore it.

But I hardly think that a frost giant is very iconic, compared to things like mind flayers, modrons, or drow.

In the end, the most important thing is: Good, usable, sensible monsters. If the MMI can deliver that, then I'll buy it. If not... well, then 4E probably won't deliver at all.

Look at it from another point of view: Will you need frost giants in your very first 4E campaign as a totally crucial, irreplaceable element? I dare to say no.

Then... when will you reach an appropriate level for frost giants? Let's put them on 9th level (power-wise), then it will (at a 1 level per month rate, that many people see as far to fast) take about 9 month until you actually need frost giants. Until this point, it's probable that you get your hands on some frost giants. On ENWorld or another home brew forum.

And as a "bait" to buy new monster manuals? Well, you don't have to buy'em, yet the MMs and different creature collections, Tome of Horrors, Monsternomicon, Denizens of Avadnu are all bestsellers. Or use the plentiful free stuff all over the web. Or just switch fire to cold for the frost giant.

Cheers, LT.