"Bait Monsters" and the "Trained Mindset"

[jester47]

Now the speaker that spoke about the Frost Giants not being in MM1 may have just picked a monster name at random to illustrate a point.

However I would state that there is a cadre of monsters that has existed since the inception of the game that should always be in the first book (Frost Giants among them).

I would say that anything in the 3.5 SRD Monster listing that does not get left out on the "Stupid or Redundant Monster Principle" should be in the first Monster Manual.

I am not saying that using a game element as bait is wrong. A good idea well implemented should be a cause of profit. I have a problem when the traditional monsters and classes are used as bait to get me to buy more books beyond the traditional three. I find the practice to be severely manipulative. Also such a practice is insulting to the designers of the game elements because it forces a sale based on completism rather than their own merit.

Also, the idea that I will have to wait 2 to N years to use a game element that was introduced at the outset of previous editions strikes me as a dealbreaker.

That said the business model can be implemented in such a way as not to be manipulative and to showcase the talent of the designers and gain the respect and interest of gamers. Still the idea of bait monsters when used right would be intrigueing. Ideal candidates for "bait" monsters would be those newer yet cool monsters that are not attached to general mythology. Other types would be less popular "sacred cow" demons and devils. Also, another good line of bait monsters would be the copyrighted monsters missing in the SRD: beholder, gauth, carrion crawler, displacer beast, githyanki/githzerai, kuo-toa, mind flayer, slaad, umber hulk, yuan-ti.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I would say that anything in the 3.5 SRD Monster listing that does not get left out on the "Stupid or Redundant Monster Principle" should be in the first Monster Manual.

How does this not describe a Frost Giant?

What is the major difference between Frost and Fire Giants, other than element?

If you took the Fire Giant entry, crossed out every instance of the word "Fire," wrote in "Cold," and changed them from black and red to blue and yellow, would anyone actually catch the difference?

Now, I'm not actually for or against the removal of Frost Giants from the MM1; I'm rather ambivalent (having used them extensively only when playing Secret of the Silver Blades). I just don't see how it could possibly be a cause for this much consternation!

 

[MerricB]

Frost Giants going worries me mostly because along with Hill and Fire, I consider them the archetypal D&D giants. And it leaves open the question of "what else is going?"

Funnily enough, you could get rid of the beholder and mind flayers from MM1 and I wouldn't bat an eyelid. It's all in what you use, right?

Cheers!

 

[TwinBahamut]

I mostly mind the lack of frost giants in the first Monster Manual becuase frost giants, along with fire giants, are archetypical giants taken directly from Norse mythology. If they are going to have any giants at all in the Monster Manual, it should be just those two, and all other giants could be left for later Monster Manuals.

It is like having water-elemental and earth-elemental genies in the first Monster Manual (can't remember their names...), and leaving the Efreet and Djinn for a later Monster Manual. It is just odd.

 

[Rechan]

I do hope they leave out some iconic monsters, simply so they can make them suckers good.

Example: Mind Flayer. I don't want the Mind Flayer coming out until the Psionic rules are out. Granted, since monsters won't just get slapped 'spell like ability' and whatnot, this might be less necessary, but I want the MF to jive with psionics in any fashionable way, rather than have to shuffle back and forth.

I've also discovered the marvels of just taking Stats for monster X and slapping appearance of mosnter Y on it. For instance, in my upcoming session, I intend to drop a poison attack on the Owlbear and call it 'Yaun-ti Abomination Junior', as Yaun-ti Abominations are too powerful for what I need.

The only thing gone in the MM that would make me mad is Kobolds. Because by god, I love kobolds, and they better not be gone.

 

[SpiderMonkey]

Yeah. This is one of the few tidbits that has me scratching my head. I've really liked all of the changes and fluff they've announced so far, but this one...

I agree that outside of flavor and a descriptor, frost giants are simply inside-out fire giants, but still, we've gotten so close over the years...

What I'm hoping is that they have some sort of "giant plus" template that allows you to slap elemental or special attacks, and that a frost giant would not only be a permutation of this, but also have something that makes them more than inside-out fire giants.

I'll agree with MerricB: other iconic D&D stuff gone (beholder, mind flayer) wouldn't bother me all that much, but I find myself missing the frost giant.

And they'd damn well better keep my gelatinous cube. It's genetically adapted to graph paper, for god's sake!

 

[Keldryn]

Never really liked giants, almost never used them... If they're not in the 4e MM, I probably wouldn't even notice if it weren't for online bellyaching.

 

[Abstraction]

I would think that most people buying 4E would start playing level 1 games. Thus, I would like the scales of the MM1 to be tilted towards the lower end for monster levels. I doubt I would need a Frost Giant before MM2.

 

[Riley]

Never really liked giants, almost never used them... If they're not in the 4e MM, I probably wouldn't even notice if it weren't for online bellyaching.

I remember the last time I played or fought a frost giant. It was in my friend Monte's (different Monte's) basement bedroom, and I was running him through the white-covered G2 'Frost Giant Jarl' that I'd checked out of the library. In 1983.

Not losing any sleep over that one. I'll care about what's in it, not what's left out. It'll only be a problem for me if a significant number of the monsters that are in the MM1 are lousy, and I won't know that til it's released.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

However I would state that there is a cadre of monsters that has existed since the inception of the game that should always be in the first book (Frost Giants among them).

Catoblepas weren't in the 3E MM. Nor was the perytron and a whole host of other classic monsters. It was mildly annoying, but hardly the end of the world.

I would say that anything in the 3.5 SRD Monster listing that does not get left out on the "Stupid or Redundant Monster Principle" should be in the first Monster Manual.

Why is the yrthk or the phantom fungus automatically a winner because it was in the SRD?

Also, the idea that I will have to wait 2 to N years to use a game element that was introduced at the outset of previous editions strikes me as a dealbreaker.

WotC: I will be happy waiting until 7E or 8E for the phantom fungus. Seriously, take your time.