Balanced Race? Judge the 'Perfects'

[Aust Diamondew]

Too weak for +2 LA IMO, proably a little strong for +1 LA, but I'd allow it at that. If it turns out to be a problem just make PCs who are perfects take their next level as +1 more LA. Make it clear at character creation that this might happen if they prove to be unbalanced.

 

[Nifft]

The fundamental questions is this: Is +2 to all your scores and a bonus feat and bonus HP worth 1 level of Level Adjustment at all levels of play for all classes (in the absence of other +1 LA options)?

Irrelevant. LA doesn't care about all classes. If your new races is worth +1 LA for any class, it gets +1 LA.

Ogre Wizard or Ogre Barbarian: Ogre is still LA +2 (one is merely a better choice).

Do you think Pixie Barbarian is worth LA +4? No, but for a Pixie Rogue, it is. Guess what all Pixies get? LA +4.

Some races are virtually pigeon-holed into playing certain classes by their racial bonuses and penalties (although this can lead to making 'rogue' character concepts, it's a mechanical angle and usually not a story angle that impels it). My goal was a race that plays all classes equally well and is a riff on being an 'outsider' like the drow, half-orc, and half-elf are usually written about.

Am I missing something? What does this have to do with your race's LA?

Drow are outsiders, and they have LA +2.

Cheers, -- N

 

[DarkKestral]

Drow are outsiders, and they have LA +2.

Cheers, -- N

Aren't they in fact humanoids or monstrous humanoids? Tieflings are the outsiders you want...

EDIT: more on topic, I'd say these are perhaps LA+2. A weak LA+2, but LA+2. You are essentially giving humans a template that says "+2 to all stats" without taking away an HD or two, which is a definite no-no, as even the best LA+1s don't get HP to compensate for their lack of HD, as a general rule. I like the "Perfected form" template, as it feels more inline with how super-soldiers are likely to be designed, that is.. built to be optimal in a specific role, but not necessarily built superior across the board. A scout will probably take Dex, Wis, and Con, while a heavy weapons user will likely take Str, Con, and perhaps Wis or maybe Dex. Commander types are likely to go Int, Cha, Con, (and probably be wizards or sorcerors, depending on which stat they're personally better in, or very possibly bards focusing on oratory, as bards only get better the more allies they have, and soldiers are trained to fight in groups)

My 'perfected' would be the template form, as laid out by Kinem, though modified to say +2 to three stats of player's choice, and would perhaps include a description below showing 'typical' names for the various stat combos.

 

[Nifft]

My goal was a race that plays all classes equally well and is a riff on being an 'outsider' like the drow, half-orc, and half-elf are usually written about.

Drow are outsiders, and they have LA +2.

Aren't they in fact humanoids or monstrous humanoids? Tieflings are the outsiders you want...

Context, my friend, context.

-- N

 

[DarkKestral]

Context, my friend, context.

-- N

Humor, my friend, humor. It just seemed too perfect, considering that tieflings are mentioned as an 'outsider' race and are of the [outsider] type.

 

[Nifft]

Humor, my friend, humor. It just seemed too perfect, considering that tieflings are mentioned as an 'outsider' race and are of the [outsider] type.

Missed your intent entirely. There should be an emoticon for that...

- - -

Anyway, I think most folks here feel it's too strong for +1, but too weak to be a solid +2.

Cheers, -- N

 

[DarkKestral]

Missed your intent entirely. There should be an emoticon for that...

- - -

Anyway, I think most folks here feel it's too strong for +1, but too weak to be a solid +2.

Cheers, -- N

I probably should have used an emoticon now that I think about it... I just don't like to use them in web forums, so I sometimes don't use them when I should.

 

[Technik4]

Anyway, I think most folks here feel it's too strong for +1, but too weak to be a solid +2.

Is it too strong for +1 because of eyeballing existing LA +1 races or because it may actually result in more of a disparity between characters than 1 level should create (in favor of the perfects)?

As a challenge, can anyone break this (using AE Classes)? I've tried a couple times but it comes up on par with most classes with another level.

I've looked over the AE Classes a number of times and it seems to me that the BAB, HP (most HD are d6 minimum, or 3.5 average hp, though my players will be rolling), and class abilities are very competitive. Additionally, some classes get actual stat bonuses (the Ritual Warrior, as well as most of the racial classes) which further complicates things.

Irrelevant. LA doesn't care about all classes. If your new races is worth +1 LA for any class, it gets +1 LA.

No, but I do One of the reasons no other LA +X races will be allowed is because I find them to be poorly balanced with regular races and +X class levels. It's a pitfall for characters because while they may have some unnatural ability (or high AC or extreme ability scores) they come up short in many generic situations.

 

[DarkKestral]

Is it too strong for +1 because of eyeballing existing LA +1 races or because it may actually result in more of a disparity between characters than 1 level should create (in favor of the perfects)?

OK, let me just show an example: a human fighter 20 vs. a perfect fighter 18/Barbarian 1: Given the elite array, and they both prioritize Str and Con, with the next biggest scores in Dex and Wis, while saving the mediocre/bad scores for Int and Cha.

Human fighter has 15 Str, 14 Con, 13 Dex, 12 Wis, 10 Int, and 8 Cha before bonuses from leveling and items. a total of 69 skill points, and 8 general feats and of course, 11 fighter feats. Let's say he optimizes for damage, so at 20, he has 20 Str, 14 Con, 13 Dex, 12 Wis, 10 Int, and 8 Cha, so at 20, he has a +5 to hit and damage before feats are included. Assuming he also has Greater Weapon focus/spec, he has an additional +2 to hit and +4 to damage with his favored weapon, for a total full attack of +26/+21/+16/+11 before any stuff like TWF has been factored in. He has a total of 140 HP on average, with a maximum of 240 or a minimum of 60. He can power attack for a total of +40 damage per hit using a 2H weapon. His saves will be +17 Fort, +7 Ref, +7 Will.

Our Perfect fighter will take the same focus, and will have 17 Str, 16 Con, 15 Dex, 14 Wis, 12 Int, and 10 Cha. He'll have a total of 69 skill points, 8 general feats, and 10 fighter feats. He'll also optimize for damage, so he'll end up with +5 to hit and +5 to damage, but he'll end up with 16 Dex at the end. He's got rage 1/day though or maybe a bit more, if he picked an appropriate time to pick up Extra Rage feats, so while raging, he'll have +7 to hit and +7 to damage giving him a total of +27/+22/+17/+12, and pick up an additional 38 hit points. He'll also have a higher base speed, if he's using mithral full plate, since it counts as light armor. Given that he will already outclass the max dex of normal full plate, he'll probably go for the mithral stuff at high levels, and it will mean that he'll have the same AC as the Human fighter when raging, or a little more when he isn't. He'll have 149.5 HP on average, with a minimum of 79, and a maximum of 252. Assuming he has power attack and a 2H weapon, but he'll have a fairly similar max and average damage as the fighter when raging, assuming they both go to the same +dmg point with power attacks. When raging, the perfect will hit a little more often than the fighter will, though. He'll also have a slightly higher move speed, since he picked up the extra speed from the barbarian level. His saves will be +18 Fort, +9 Ref, +8 Will when not raging, and +20 Fort +9 Ref, and +10 Will when raging.

So.. what do we see from all this? Essentially, assuming the right builds, the LA+1 perfect fighter/barbarian can outclass/match the human fighter in every possible way, except the one fighter feat, and so that feat had better be VERY potent, because the perfect gets a sort of 'Superior Weapon Focus', and 'Great Fortitude' and 'Iron Will' from having those better stats when raging. Since this isn't generally the case with fighter feats, he's essentially SoL, assuming an otherwise core rules game.

In other words, LA+1 is not fair to the players of human characters. The only reason I took the single barbarian level is that any uneven LA fighter is stupid if he lets his last level be only d10 HD, +1 BAB, and 2 skill points when he could get d12 HD, +1 BAB, 4 skill points (and a class skill list which includes all of the fighter's class skills), +2 Fort, rage 1/day, and 10 ft. extra move speed in medium/light/no armor. The only time the fighter gets to shine is if he whores his extra feat and he gets hit with a lot of HD-dependent effects that change categories precisely when you go from 19 to 20 HD. That won't be very often.

Thus, I will say that you will NEED LA+2 or more to balance things out. Let me repeat: LA+2 or more.

 

[Technik4]

OK, let me just show an example: a human fighter 20 vs. a perfect fighter 18/Barbarian 1: Given the elite array, and they both prioritize Str and Con, with the next biggest scores in Dex and Wis, while saving the mediocre/bad scores for Int and Cha.

Eh? <Scratches Head> If you are comparing characters can we compare a Human fighter 18/barbarian 2 and perfect fighter 18/barbarian 1? Seems more fair that way... (and we'll assume they both started as Barbarians). I'll assume elite arrays, as you did. The comparison comes out nearly the same if the perfect fighter goes 2 Barb/17 Fighter, but of course that 17th level is better off as something else.

H B2/F18
Base Ability Scores: 15 Str, 14 Con, 13 Dex, 12 Wis, 10 Int, and 8 Cha (buffs Str 3 times, Con 1, Dex 1)
20th level Ability Scores: 18 Str, 15 Con, 14 Dex, 12 Wis, 10 Int, 8 Cha (+magic)
BAB: +20/+15/+10/+5 (+str it is +24/+19/+14/+9)
Base HP: 1d12+18d10+40 (avg 145.5)
Base Saves: +16/+8/+7
Skill Points: (79), max ranks 24
Feats (8 general, 10 fighter)
Class Abilities: Rage 1/day, Uncanny Dodge, Fast Movement

P B1/F18
Base Ability Scores: 17 Str, 16 Con, 15 Dex, 14 Wis, 12 Int, and 10 Cha (buffs Str 3 times, and Dex 1)
20th level Ability Scores: 20 Str, 16 Con, 16 Dex, 14 Wis, 12 Int, 10 Cha (+magic)
BAB: +19/+14/+9/+4 (+str it is +24/+19/+14/+9)
Base HP: 18d10+73 (avg 172)
Base Saves: +16/+9/+8
Skill Points: (74), max ranks 23
Feats (8 general, 10 fighter)
Class Abilities: Rage 1/day, Fast Movement

So.. what do we see from all this? Essentially, assuming the right builds, the LA+1 perfect fighter/barbarian can outclass/match the human fighter in every possible way, except the one fighter feat, and so that feat had better be VERY potent, because the perfect gets a sort of 'Superior Weapon Focus', and 'Great Fortitude' and 'Iron Will' from having those better stats when raging. Since this isn't generally the case with fighter feats, he's essentially SoL, assuming an otherwise core rules game.

Well in my comparison everything is fairly even. The perfect won't hit more often (unless they differ on magic items) though his AC may be higher (if he can use that extra dex he's got). His rage lasts 1 extra round and he has a handful of extra hp (1 additional hit from a high-level monster at best).

It seems to me that the perfect ftr/barb is tougher, can rage for a little longer, and has slightly better saves. Less skill points, but higher bonuses to them. By contrast the human fighter has uncanny dodge, an extra point of BAB (useful when BAB is important but STR is not added - ie: very rarely at 20th level). Basically, the class ability of Uncanny Dodge is the big difference (which the perfect could have picked up at the expense of a high-level fighter feat).

In other words, LA+1 is not fair to the players of human characters. The only reason I took the single barbarian level is that any uneven LA fighter is stupid if he lets his last level be only d10 HD, +1 BAB, and 2 skill points when he could get d12 HD, +1 BAB, 4 skill points (and a class skill list which includes all of the fighter's class skills), +2 Fort, rage 1/day, and 10 ft. extra move speed in medium/light/no armor. The only time the fighter gets to shine is if he whores his extra feat and he gets hit with a lot of HD-dependent effects that change categories precisely when you go from 19 to 20 HD. That won't be very often.

It seems, whether or not you did it intentionally, all the barbarian level did was show the disparity between a pure fighter and a fighter that dips for barb levels.

Thus, I will say that you will NEED LA+2 or more to balance things out. Let me repeat: LA+2 or more.

I don't think 25 extra hp (at 20th level) and slightly better saves warrant a full level loss. If anything, that would definitely make the perfect a subpar choice. I do appreciate the time you took for your response though. While the perfect fighter vs human fighter comes out slightly ahead, the difference when it comes to casters is slightly in favor of the stock human (with an extra spell level).

Overall, it seems to me, that you would consider choosing perfect as your race if you were looking to make a skill-based character that also enjoys combat. You definitely dig all the bonuses to your skills from your generally high stats, which also make you slightly more proficient in combat than you should be. Fighters do come out slightly ahead (at high levels), but there are many easy examples of when you'd wish you were a stock human. For instance:

Human Brb2/Ftr 4, BAB: +6/+1
Perfect Brb1/Ftr4, BAB: +5

And every 6 levels after that you are still lagging on your iterative attack. At 20th it's a non-issue, but considering the game is beginning at level 1, I think it would be something to consider if you are playing a fighter for the long haul.

Anyone else want to take a crack at 'breaking' this race at LA +1?