D&D 5E Bards Should Be Half-Casters in 5.5e/6e

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Yeah, though you can cheese Fantasy Craft so all you really need is Charisma. WotC experimented with dual stat casters in 3.5, like the Favored Soul- the problem is, it's basically like saying Fighters need to have Dexterity for attack bonus and Strength to damage- it's a pretty heavy nerf unless the game has a more generous point buy.

Honestly, I hate that WotC has simplified classes to the point that some only need a very small amount of ability scores to function, then pushed point buy (even though it's presented as optional in the PHB, most groups seem to use it).

They could have done the opposite, made all ability scores attractive for all classes, and given people more points to play with. But that ship has sailed, so...
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Yeah, though you can cheese Fantasy Craft so all you really need is Charisma. WotC experimented with dual stat casters in 3.5, like the Favored Soul- the problem is, it's basically like saying Fighters need to have Dexterity for attack bonus and Strength to damage- it's a pretty heavy nerf unless the game has a more generous point buy.

Honestly, I hate that WotC has simplified classes to the point that some only need a very small amount of ability scores to function, then pushed point buy (even though it's presented as optional in the PHB, most groups seem to use it).

They could have done the opposite, made all ability scores attractive for all classes, and given people more points to play with. But that ship has sailed, so...
Well yes. But it's a nerf because it's not equitable. If everyone was in the same boat it wouldn't matter.

And it's probably not really the point buy that matters so much. It's more the way ability scores progress. Point buy is all relative, but the fact that you only effectively get to progress one ability at present means that the classes really need to be SAD, because only one ability score scales. (ie if you needed Strength to hit and Dex for AC then one of those would fall behind.)
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Well yes. But it's a nerf because it's not equitable. If everyone was in the same boat it wouldn't matter.

And it's probably not really the point buy that matters so much. It's more the way ability scores progress. Point buy is all relative, but the fact that you only effectively get to progress one ability at present means that the classes really need to be SAD, because only one ability score scales. (ie if you needed Strength to hit and Dex for AC then one of those would fall behind.)
I can agree with this, it's just, other than when they suit the concept, I hate "dump stats" on principle. More specifically, I hate when you can dump a stat with almost no real penalty.

Intelligence gets called out a lot in 5e discussions, and that annoys me because I hate playing characters who are dumb as a box of rocks. I played an Orc Cleric, and I bought up to a 10 Intelligence just because it felt ridiculous not to (and there was no benefit to this at all in the time I played him).

To my mind, if there were more tangible benefits to all ability scores, regardless of class, this would be more palatable (but obviously you'd need a few more points to spread around), as dump stats would be a bad move.

Now I know what some will say. Yes, there are games that do this. And yes, I could go play them. I don't expect D&D to change- it was made simple for a reason, even if it has created characters who don't need Strength to deal damage, and idot savant adventurers.

But I think a system like this would prevent some min/max, and even make rolling for stats more palatable. I mean, right now, we have a game where point buy caps your starting stats, and nothing can advance beyond 20, because classes exist that could boost one stat above all others and gain a stupidly broken advantage because of it.

Even with the cap, most characters don't really need to raise other stats, and if feats are on the table, most don't bother to if you can get a feat instead (unless it's a half-feat of course).
 

If the main stat is so much more important than the other stats, then it should cost more points! Then there actually might be some decisions about how to arrange your stats.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
The point value doesn't matter though, if you don't need high numbers anywhere else. You could make a 14 or 15 cost twice as much as it does now in point-buy, and people would just lower everything else they need by a point or two to get it.
 

Joshy

Explorer
You could make it tied to subclass on classes that get them at 1st level. You could make a feat to switch the dedicated stat.
You could make everything more mad, but why would you want to?

I don't see how making a caster need multiple stats for the same feature is any different than making weapons need one stat to hit and another for damage.

Instead of making a feature worse by making it more MAD, why not incentivize using the other stats? Figure out or create a reason why each spellcaster would want to specialise in a stat other than their primary or constitution.
 

You could make it tied to subclass on classes that get them at 1st level. You could make a feat to switch the dedicated stat.
You could make everything more mad, but why would you want to?

I don't see how making a caster need multiple stats for the same feature is any different than making weapons need one stat to hit and another for damage.

Instead of making a feature worse by making it more MAD, why not incentivize using the other stats? Figure out or create a reason why each spellcaster would want to specialise in a stat other than their primary or constitution.
If you can switch the stat you're depended on it still means you focus on one stat and can dump the rest. And if you take it so far like in 4e where you had a feat to allows you to attack with any stat, then there is really little point of having different stats if they're all just interchangeable and do the same thing. I would prefer a system where a balanced selection of stats is not automatically inferior to focusing on one stat and different stats actually make you good in different ways.
 

Joshy

Explorer
If you can switch the stat you're depended on it still means you focus on one stat and can dump the rest. And if you take it so far like in 4e where you had a feat to allows you to attack with any stat, then there is really little point of having different stats if they're all just interchangeable and do the same thing. I would prefer a system where a balanced selection of stats is not automatically inferior to focusing on one stat and different stats actually make you good in different ways.
I completely agree with the thought of making each stat hold more weight. I like the idea that each character could maybe specialise in around three stats. But I think making a feature worse by forcing it to use multiple stats is the wrong way to go. Instead give the players a strong reason to pick each stat. Maybe add something like a talent or skill trick system that has stat requirements.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Yes, that's what I think as well. Don't make Dex to hit, Str to damage. But find some other way to make even a Barbarian player go "man, a few more points of Intelligence would really help me here".
 

You could make it tied to subclass on classes that get them at 1st level. You could make a feat to switch the dedicated stat.
You could make everything more mad, but why would you want to?

I don't see how making a caster need multiple stats for the same feature is any different than making weapons need one stat to hit and another for damage.

Instead of making a feature worse by making it more MAD, why not incentivize using the other stats? Figure out or create a reason why each spellcaster would want to specialise in a stat other than their primary or constitution.
You'd probably need a different reason for each class to want to use each secondary stat, which is a heap of work.

Whichever way you do it the result will be the same. A Ranger needs Dex and Wis, and Con like everyone else, plus they need Strength if they want to go Melee. If you want to make Int appealing as well, then to be worth dropping something else, they need it has to be really appealing or else it's just a consolation prize for being sub-optimal, which of course means that in most cases people will still dump it, but just be more annoyed about it.

And if you're offering strong incentives then you might as well do it in the simplest way possible.

In theory Str for Damage and Dex to hit is fine. There's a trade-off between hitting more and doing less damage and hitting less but doing more damage. In practice, it's more difficult. Part of this is because, even when the trade off is even, it's better to hit reliably then be swingy, and part of it's the psychology (people don't like missing). However, this can be dealt with by actually weighting Str a little more in the trade-off. The real problem is scaling. Playtesting has to be rigorous because it's very easy for a source of bonus damage to swing things towards Dex (The less percentage of your damage that comes from Strength the less valuable it is). WotC learnt during the rushed production of 4e (and the errata they produced for it over the years) that the easiest way to balance is to simply not have the kinds of interactinos in the system that require rigorous playtesting.

The trade-off that 4e brought about between Str and Dex in that Dex became irrelevant to heavy armour uses completely. Pre 3E Dex was always good for AC no matter what armour you wore. In 3E you could do this too but it was never quite as clean, as you often wanted some Dex to meet prerequisites, and each type of armour had a different Max Dex bonus. In Pathfinder they actually went the other way and gave Fighters the special ability to add more of their Dex bonus in heavy armour (which I appreciate even though the Pathfinder Fighter still sucks).

13th Age has an interesting solution to this whole thing in that it makes certain things based off the middle of three scores. Eg. AC is the middle score of Dex/Con/Wis, Physical Defence is Str/Con/Dex and Mental Defence is Int/Wis/Cha. In practice this still allows you to dump a score if you don't need it, and it still makes Con/Dex and Wis the more important scores, but it does offer some flexibility.

Part of the issue right now is that you have to consider the scaling of Ability Scores as well. Right now if I want to make a Str based Fighter in light armour (for some reason), I'm trading off AC for To hit and Damage. That Trade-off is not such a bad thing at 1st level. I might decide that 14 Dex is fine and 16 Str is good to hit. On balance this is fine, I'm one point down on AC compared to a light armour finesse using specialist. I could live with that at 1st level. The problem is that light armour assumes that I will be raising my Dex, however I can either raise my Strength and improve my chance to hit, or I Can raise my Dex, but I can't do both (or I can, but I'm still behind the curve on both). Introducing real trade-offs means rethinking the way that ability score bonuses are gained. (Personally I'd be tempted to go for +1 to 3 scores every four levels).
 

Remove ads

Top