Base Hitpoints: Containing the Ripple.

[Sylrae]

I appreciate the suggestions. I already have a system for extra hitpoints. I give the players (1/2 max human con) + (1/2 con) which is like adding their con score for max value, but it bumps the lower value up to make less of a difference for the low con people with their bonus level 1 hit points.

The question, is "if the players are getting extra hit points, that works out great for fighter types, because their abilities arent tied to hit points as much, because they can do their attacks/abilities again and again and again. A spellcaster gets a limited number of times per day for their abilities, but the number of times they get them assumes the regular number of hit points. it effectively makes the magic less powerful. People have more hit points, but people dont get stronger magic. or more magic. How should that be dealt with? Should it be dealt with?"

As for whether the players are having a harder time killing the monsters, its too early in the play/playtest to tell at the moment. I guess I'll keep playing with it like this for a while, and if it is getting to be too hard, I'll adjust everyone's spells per day in some way to fix it.

For now I guess I'll leave this to playtesting, and then come back to it.

 

[Hawken]

Slyrae, I don't see where hit points are dependent upon spellcasting or vice versa. My understanding for the limited/fixed damage of spells was that it was a mitigating factor for the number of targets that could be affected by the attack as well as the range of the attack. I've never heard of anyone before you suggesting that spells were designed only for creatures with less hp than normal.

Instead of giving extra/bonus hit points, for your low level game, just give them their first 3 levels of HD. Max. hit points at 1st level, roll the other 2 HD. PCs don't get anymore HD until they hit 4th level. And just do this for PCs. Not monsters, not NPCs, just the PCs.

This doesn't make them 'super' characters or uber powerful, but it will help keep them alive longer and let them survive hits that would take out a 1st level character. Plus, its seems to solve your quandary about hit points and spells. I think.

 

[Sylrae]

My comment about the spells was that I was saying.
The fixed number of spells per day(and/or the damage spells do) assumes a certain number of hitpoints by level. The spells become less effective if players have more hit points than they would have in a regular game. For example, in a game where everyone gets max hp at every level, spellcasters effectively have Half the damage on their spells.

As for the solution of giving everyone 3 levels of hit points at the beginning, it sortof solves the issue...
True, the spells will work as normal.
But this makes the PCs tougher (wighout adjusting the monsters and npcs accordingly) at low levels, which is very much not the point. I'm not trying to make the PCs find the first few levels much easier, just avoid 1 hit kills at low levels... Although, maybe I should be making it easier too, in which case giving them the extra hd at first level could work.

I'll have to think about it and come back to this.

 

[Kerrick]

Yeah, or just give them max hp + Con score. That would give squishies a huge boost (definitely not one-hit kills then!) and the front-liners a lesser boost (but still enough to let them last longer on the front line).

 

[Sylrae]

that makes spells less than 1/2 as useful if you mean every level.

if you mean only at first level, thats already basically what im doing (slight variant which would produce basically the same results)

either way, you still have damage spells being effectively dumbed down as a result.

If you give everyone max hp at every level, the only way to 'perfectly' compensate the spellcasters, is to assume max damage for spells.

if you give everyone 2x the hd per level (which results in an avg hp amount = max at 1 hp, roughly) then you should double the damage on spells.

I say this because spells are limited to a certain number per day. so if everything has 2x as many hit points, then your spells are basically doing half damage (because you dont get an increased number of attack spells to compensate, so youll run out of juice 2x as fast as normal).

 

[Hawken]

Just to clarify, my solution to give them their 3rd level HD (3dX + 3X Con) was only for first level. At 2nd level, no HP gain. At 3rd level, no HP gain. At 4th and on, normal HP gain.

The idea isn't really to reduce the already reduced effectiveness of spells. --I agree, Sylrae, that spells have been dumbed down quite a bit; successively through each edition. Instead, the idea was to give each character enough HP to survive a critical hit or two. 1st and low level characters are going to be limited as far as healing goes, so even a 1st level mage that winds up with 15hp and takes 5hp in a battle will still feel comfortable taking on maybe one or two more encounters before needing rest or one of the cleric's few healing spells, rather than forcing the group to call it a day so he doesn't get killed. Same with the other classes. They'll be able to take a few more hits, but with limited recovery resources, they're not going to be throwing themselves into a fight with total disregard thinking they're gods or something. They'll still need to be cautious or at least mindful of their condition.

 

[Sylrae]

Just to clarify, my solution to give them their 3rd level HD (3dX + 3X Con) was only for first level. At 2nd level, no HP gain. At 3rd level, no HP gain. At 4th and on, normal HP gain.

The idea isn't really to reduce the already reduced effectiveness of spells. --I agree, Sylrae, that spells have been dumbed down quite a bit; successively through each edition. Instead, the idea was to give each character enough HP to survive a critical hit or two. 1st and low level characters are going to be limited as far as healing goes, so even a 1st level mage that winds up with 15hp and takes 5hp in a battle will still feel comfortable taking on maybe one or two more encounters before needing rest or one of the cleric's few healing spells, rather than forcing the group to call it a day so he doesn't get killed. Same with the other classes. They'll be able to take a few more hits, but with limited recovery resources, they're not going to be throwing themselves into a fight with total disregard thinking they're gods or something. They'll still need to be cautious or at least mindful of their condition.

that doesnt sound too bad, but im not sure 3 levels is enough hp for said wizard. thats like an avg of an extra 4 hp + 2con.

I'm thinking they need between 15-20 extra hp.

and if i give max hp for the first three levels, that (in my opinion) leads to the same problem im talking about where extra hit points can make spells less useful.

 

[Hawken]

If its not enough for a wizard, you could tweak it so that anyone with D4 HD gets max hp for those three rolls. That puts them roughly even with a maxxed out 1d6 + 2d6 rolled for rogues and bards. This doesn't reduce any effectiveness of any spells whatsoever as far as damage goes.

Any 1st level spell is just about death for a wizard, and 1st level adventures take that into consideration. Giving a 1st level wizard 3hd doesn't overpower him it just prevents him from going down in a single hit.

After 1-2 combats in a 1st level adventure, the PCs after healing, resting, etc. are going to be around 50-80% hp, give or take. This means that they are not incapacitated but they know they're tired and hurt. And without further healing, they risk disaster if they keep going rather than facing disaster at the first fight, hoping and praying they don't get hit with a crit or more than 1-2 good shots. Downtime for recovery is considerably reduced and the characters could potentially get a little farther before having to settle down to rest.

 

[Hereticus]

All untrained zero level creatures have their Constitution for Hit points.

Each level they gain Constitution/3 additional Hit points.

It works well.

 

[Grazzt]

Yeah, or just give them max hp + Con score. That would give squishies a huge boost (definitely not one-hit kills then!) and the front-liners a lesser boost (but still enough to let them last longer on the front line).

I've thought about going with Con score + Con mod + HD for 1st level, where "HD" equals die roll for hp (1d10 fighter, 1d8 cleric, etc)

Right now, I start all 1st-level PCs with a "kicker" of + 10 hp. So fighters get 10 + 1d10 + Con modifier hp at 1st level.

Monsters get the same 10 hp boost at 1 HD.

After that, all classes and monsters progress normally. Seems to work fine for us.