D&D 5E Battlemaster and Superiority Dice are causing martials to suffer.

[Vaalingrade]

Attacking downed characters is the opposite of 'effectively' playing the opposition. It's just wanting the PC dead for whatever reason and will teach the players to just not do anything that might result in them going down. Like following adventure hooks.

 

[Mecheon]

I attack downed PCs because it is the most effective way to play bad guys and the PCs are not dead. If he is still breathing hit him again.

Not really realistic, though

If I'm in a fight and folks are shooting at me, swinging swords at me and I get one of them down, I'm not going to double tap. I'm going to pull back to a more adventageous position, or fire back at the archers, or use him as bait. Standing there and going after someone you've taken on is just inviting "And then I got sniped by a Longneck archer/spell immediate afterwards and died, accomplishing nothing but annoying my enemies"

 

[Garthanos]

To start with yes they can. Anything with hands can

yeh every monster has hands and fights with them not jaws and wings not claws or talons (ever seen a tiger or a bear throw something) or tentacles and thinks of using tools the way these hominid descendants do nods and the zombies think of that too ... cause you know their brains are such fine specimens they might be thinking hay this thing is annoying helping my enemy and he might get 1 or 2 attacks in over the course of the battle because no other source of advantage exists.

And you are letting that caster have fun of free use of the Faerrie fire (I know which source of advantage I would want to attack first or even the most it is the one who accelerates the fight end the most and may be affecting the most people) or stepping up his game later if he wants Haste or Invisibility or Hypnotic Pattern or maybe Polymorph or Web even whatever but you are spending maybe an average 2 attacks (sometimes less or more) assuming you can reach the familiar) on a pesky bird that makes advantage happen to one target each round and only likely has real effect on one or with a 6 round battle 2 attacks unless tada there is a rogue that doesn't already have advantage from another source that now needs it. Heck flanking is not even needed these days just a melee combatant.

Sounds like a thing you wouldnt do if you didnt have a Rogue on hand ie back to me seeing the enemy shout look out its a rogue beware that owl... instead of "kill the caster" and potentially break concentration thus stopping some badass/more significant and intense ongoing spells.

And the fighter maneuver would take many times the rounds and dice thrown at it before that advantage from distracting attack is likely useful (also yes without a rogue in need of advantage)...The need of another source of advantage goes down gradually over time... more sources enter the field and so on.

 

[Garthanos]

Not really realistic, though

That is the general complaint about metagaming but you know what I do not really care too much about actual realism when it comes to mechanics usually but at the choices made level? hmmm should we consider that to be any different? Choices you make for the NPC that the adversaries do not reasonably have the information to make nor the mental wherewithal to make... hmmm its a much more subtle thing than its given credit for.

To me this is obvious DM vs PC adversarialism going on....
or it could be attributed to metagaming and presumes either illicit knowledge on the monsters part
or utter monster bloodlust without any concern of self, a horror story motif if you will ie not heroic action fantasy genre.
without player buy in that is icky.

If I'm in a fight and folks are shooting at me, swinging swords at me and I get one of them down, I'm not going to double tap. I'm going to pull back to a more adventageous position, or fire back at the archers, or use him as bait. Standing there and going after someone you've taken on is just inviting "And then I got sniped by a Longneck archer/spell immediate afterwards and died, accomplishing nothing but annoying my enemies"

Hey but you did get to pwn them libs.. I mean take out a PC so he knows this isnt a safe place I mean... I lost track of what I meant.

 

[ECMO3]

And you are letting that caster have fun of free use of the Faerrie fire (I know which source of advantage

So IF I hit the caster, which is a lot harder than hitting the familiar, and IF he fails the concentration save, IF I am successful in doing both those things, he just casts it again on his next turn. Generally there is a really low probability of breaking concentration on one attack, really low, like 10% or so, especially if I need to resort to using a thrown improvised weapon.

The familiar on the other hand is gone with any hit, and there is a really high probability of that happening on one attack.

Math Matters!

I would want to attack first or even the most it is the one who accelerates the fight end the most and may be affecting the most people) or stepping up his game later if he wants Haste or Invisibility or Hypnotic Pattern or maybe Polymorph or Web even whatever but you are spending maybe an average 2 attacks

I would not attack the familiar if my allies were under the effect of Hypnotic pattern, but I would not attack the wizard either. If that was the case I would just use an action so they could all brush off the spell in one round (Shake one guy out of it, that guy uses his action to shake another guy out of it, that guy uses his action .......)

In is never worth going after the caster with Hypnotic pattern because with an action you can pretty much get everyone out of the effect in a round ... 2 rounds maximum of the positioning is difficult. This is far more effective than trying to end concentration, which is a low percentage move that is likely to fail. Depending on the situation, if I have multiattack I might also attack an ally (waking him) and then use another attack on the familiar. Every ally could do this (one attack to wake an ally, 2nd attack on someone) instead of using a whole action to shake someone out of it.

Now with the Fear spell - yes I would let the familiar go (for now) and attack the caster, because in most circumstances that spell takes your allies completely out for the entire fight with no further saves, or with saves so late it is irrelevant, but I would not attack the wizard with HP and probably not with polymorph or web either, although with polymorph it would depend who it was cast on.

(sometimes less or more) assuming you can reach the familiar) on a pesky bird that makes advantage happen to one target each round and only likely has real effect on one or with a 6 round battle 2 attacks unless tada there is a rogue that doesn't already have advantage from another source that now needs it. Heck flanking is not even needed these days just a melee combatant.

Using one attack against a casting wizard likely has no effect on his spell at all, yet you are here talking about it like it is a done deal. Normally you are going to need to attack a wizard 5 times or more to get him to lose concentration, more than that if he is proficient in constitution or has warcaster. So using one attack to take out the familiar is hardly changing that dynamic, you still have to attack the wizard a bunch of times to be successful.

Attacking a familiar on the other hand will usually kill it in one shot, not always but usually.

Finally if the familiar has "no real effect" on a 6 round battle, then it is undoubtedly worse than a battlemaster combat maneuver which will always have a damage effect even if it does nothing else.

 

[Garthanos]

Finally if the familiar has "no real effect" on a 6 round battle,

Except
I enumerated the real effect as probably 2 attacks worth over that full battle. And I was saying those other spells have much more impact and dealing with those is maybe more important you just showed how you would do so for one type, but if you have monsters all just know his allies can be shaken out of the effects of the spell you may just engaging in your obviously favorite metagaming past time.

You showed with that how you would be dealing with that instead of attacking the familiar ignoring the familiar while doing that, which is actually part of my point and if the player caster is using faerrie fire and that is doing its job then advantage may not even be needed and similar things. Attacks against a creature in your web spell already have advantage and so on

The maneuver distracting attack with the extra damage die included remains inferior by a large factor though the die scales mildly 1/3 of an attack plus a die is less than 2 attacks ... And even if you start your familiar hunt immediately the 1 die extra damage is less than the damage the familiar can likely soak providing defense in the form of damage that never is taken by the PC and that is math too... kind of like a 10GP healing potion which you do not have spend action economy drinking.

The damage bonus is worth zero if you are unwilling to consider the defense damage reduction worth something in spite of your claims is not a non-effect just an effect which a part of the attrition system just like a shield spell is also not a non-effect though shield is incredible affecting all incoming attacks the number of multi-attacks you get hit by as you level probably increase so the spells value does not go down much.

The value of most maneuvers that can be measured is basically 1 attack more or less. *distracting attack is just a poor one even poorer than I was thinking. So lets do a better comparison. The 6 rounds if you do not hunt the familiar has the familiar providing the benefit of about 2 pbms (predictably better maneuvers.) on the assumption that another source of advantage isnt already in effect like ie faerrie fire or flanking or adj is not going. LOL (pbms) Like a riposte or one that lets you get in a thrown attack alongside youri normal one perhaps . If you start hunting familiar after it actually enables a hit that would not have hit otherwise the offensive value is 1 + and the defensive value may be as much as 2 monster attacks at low level (with an improvised weapon and long range)

This is only a measure of the combat use of the one highly combat oriented/value familiar... and that is by far not the only uses find familiar can be put to... way better than distracting attack (trash) and much closer to being able to use a riposte twice per 6 round fight for example,

Shrug frequent familiar hunts ranges treats that effect as way too valuable in my opinion without a rogue present and ranges from metagaming to a DM being an a** ie you called it I agree your dming is mean though to a different degree of the spite of attacking the downed PC, but I also think taking it out is not the super duper value you claim. (yes its not negligible but its not the must do action that all NPCs will think to do even if they can. Some enemies might think of it right away others might if the bird manages to interfere once enough so they get hit when they wouldn't before, regardless will they switch out from their two handed or chase past enemies triggering opportunity attacks to reach it ). In fact if your owl can induce a melee enemy to trigger 1 opportunity attack once that is 1 pbm LOL

Recasting a spell you had interrupted/cancelled takes another slot and another action... pretending that is nothing both in terms of action economy and player oriented resources is deceptive. Yes it takes two rolls to get through but the effect is far greater. Further your attack on the familiar may be at disadvantage or impossible, I am still wondering how that lion is going to be throwing something. There can and will be large numbers of melee enemies as you can see in the monster manual and many make no sense to throw anything at all.

 

[NotAYakk]

An idea I have had is that "melee weapon attack is not an action".

If you have a melee weapon and are near a foe, that foe is in danger. You don't spend your action causing that danger. Your action is somethjng else.

Ranged attacks remain actions. Spells, cantrips, etc are all actions.

Martial PCs now have to spend their action on something else.

And the non-action threat of being in melee range of a level 11 fighter can be just as nasty as the vanilla "3 attack action". It just isn't something the fighter chooses to do, it isn't an option, it is free and automatic if the fighter isn't incapacitated.

We then add in some basic melee actions on top of dodge, push, disengage, and maybe tweak what those actions do.

Next, we add in additional actions that martial PCs gain access to with levels.

 

[Guest 7034872]

An idea I have had is that "melee weapon attack is not an action".

[...]

And I assume this also means the player cannot use their action to make another attack? You're just looking to free up the <Action> part of the turn for things other than swordplay, right?

 

[ECMO3]

Nope excuses, Metagaming you have dangerous people around and ignore them to pound on the one that is no longer dangerous

No he is dangerous because he is still breathing. Have you never watched Friday the 13th or Halloween?

Incredibly unrealistic metagaming

The entire mechanics are unrealistic, you can't subscribe to "realism" when your average 5th level fighter can get stabbed by a dagger 10 times and be perfectly fine ..... not to mention a wizard that can kill you by looking at you.

which you do because the game has people getting up you wouldnt even imagine it in 1e where a pc that goes down is disabled for a week no matter how many hit points are restored.

I played 1E, it was an entirely different game and much more difficult to survive in.

A rule easily added to 5e by the way.

I find most people like to play RAW, because it gives a common baseline. We have had a few homebrews in the various games I play, this includes drinking a potion as a bonus action (happens in 2 games), being invisible is automatically hidden unless you are standing right next to him and one game I am in right now where the DM gives everyone max hit points. But generally you are going to find most people like to stick with RAW, especially if you play at numerous tables with strangers and one-shots like I do.

 

[ECMO3]

The value of most maneuvers that can be measured is basically 1 attack more or less.

Not the good ones, and I would say they are typically closer to an action.

Quick toss, Brace and Repost are ALWAYS more than one attack because they are an extra attack with an extra damage bouns and in the cast of a Rogue usually equate to an extra sneak attack.

Menacing attack generally causes an enemy to waste an entire turn and gives him disadvantage when it doesn't do this, and disarming attack, taking an enemies weapon or spell focus, are both far more than one attack in power if he fails his save (which is most of the time for menacing attack).

Pushing attack allows you to move an enemy 15 feet this is the equivalent of three shoves (equivalent of 3 attacks) and disengage (which is an action). It is a bit situational, but it is more than an attack in the situations you would use it.

*distracting attack is just a poor one even poorer than I was thinking. So lets do a better comparison. The 6 rounds if you do not hunt the familiar has the familiar providing the benefit of about 2 pbms on the assumption that another source of advantage isnt already in effect like no faerrie fire is not going.

Well if the familiar is not being used or is irrelevant then I would not attack him.

Here is some math -

A 5th level GWM fighter in plate with a greatsword and 5th level wizard in mage armor-bladesong-blur fighting a Troll:

1. In 3 rounds if I use my first attack to kill the familiar, I do 38 damage to the fighter and I take 55 damage (42 from the fighter 13 from the Wizard). Everyone is still in the fight, assuming the Wizard hit with GFB twice, I have 39 hit points left.

2. In 3 rounds if I concentrate on the fighter from the start I do 41.5 damage to the fighter and I take 78 damage (65 from the fighter, 13 from the Wizard). Statistically I have about 16 hps left and will die in round 4.

3. If I concentrate on the Wizard I do 1.5 damage to the wizard and I take 78 damage. The chance of knocking down conncentration on blur using all 9 attacks is aproximately 3%.

Ok, what if the Wizard uses Haste on the fighter instead of blur and follows it with a carefully placed fireball in round 2 and then dodges in the 3rd round:

1. If I attack the familiar first and the Fighter second I do 38 damage and I take 105 damage (82 from the fighter, 23 from the wizard) and die in round 3.

2. If I can attack the Wizard trying to break his concentration and he has a 10 constitution, in 2 rounds statistically I do 8.7 damage on average, I take 98 damage which is enough to kill me in 2 rounds. If I survive through good rolls, the average damage on 3 rounds is 140 (23 Fireball, 117 from the fighter). My chance of breaking his concentration on his haste is less than 20% in 2 rounds and that is with a 10 constitution and assumes I can get to him in melee.

That is using a wizard you can get to in melee with a 10 constitution!

Recasting a spell you had interrupted/cancelled takes another slot and another action... pretending that is nothing both in terms of action economy and resources is deceptive.

Sure, but we are talking about a 1st level spell in the example you gave and if it is that important you would cast it again.

Yes it takes two rolls to get through but the effect is far greater.

It is usually going to take a lot more than 2 attacks to break concentration. Against a frail back line Wizard it is going to take 5 or so as long as he has not buffed con or taken warcaster, but it is generally not easy to get to such a wizard as they tend to stay out of combat. Against a Wizard with a good con save and good armor class it is going to take more than 5 attacks typically.

In the example I gave above with a 10 con bladesinger in what would be a "hard" encounter it is statistically going to take 13 attacks with a +7 attack roll to break his concentration (assuming he has not buffed himself). Faerie Fire or Haste (on someone else) or Fear or Polymorph and the number is still the same, 13 attacks at +7 and that assumes he does not dodge to support his concentration. Make it Blur or put the haste on him instead of the fighter and it is even more attacks (126 attacks to knock down blur or about 75 attacks to knock down haste if he hasted himself).

Further your attack on the familiar may be at disadvantage or impossible,

It might be impossible, in fact it is impossible quite often, but not as often as it is impossible to get to a wizard (as the Familiar has to be close enough to use his help action). Disadvantage is not that big a deal when AC is 11.

I am still wondering how that lion is going to be throwing something. There can and will be large numbers of melee enemies as you can see in the monster manual and many make no sense to throw anything at all.

Many don't, but many do as well