Battlerager Vigor damage bonus

[anithri]

"When wearing light armor or chainmail, you gain
a +1 bonus to damage rolls with melee and close
weapon attacks whenever you have temporary hit
points. "

Do I have to have the temporary hit points before I roll to hit in order to gain the damage bonus? If so, why?

I believe you do, but I can't figure out the why part.

 

[keterys]

There is no clear rule as to when you acquire the temp hp for hitting, in relation to dealing damage, so expect some table variation.

That said, the intent seems obvious. If they had intended for the damage bonus to apply on the attack that generated the temp hp itself, they'd not have had the temp hp required clause at all. It otherwise only makes a minor difference on, say, dailies that deal half damage on miss, but the potential gain from the complication would be inordinately small and would suggest that far more text should be added to clarify if that was desirable.

 

[Kraydak]

There is no clear rule as to when you acquire the temp hp for hitting, in relation to dealing damage, so expect some table variation.

That said, the intent seems obvious. If they had intended for the damage bonus to apply on the attack that generated the temp hp itself, they'd not have had the temp hp required clause at all. It otherwise only makes a minor difference on, say, dailies that deal half damage on miss, but the potential gain from the complication would be inordinately small and would suggest that far more text should be added to clarify if that was desirable.

But if you only get the damage afterwards, then you'll lose the temp hp before your next round. It seems very likely that the writers of the errata forgot the temp hp requirement on the bonus damage altogether, as neither option works well. I'd call this a case where both RAW and RAI are unclear. Neither option is overpowering, so that provides no guidance.

(I might argue for making it bonus damage if NO temp hp, but that is clear houseruling)

 

[keterys]

The _potential_ to lose the temp hp is there, of course, but that just encourages your enemies to attack you to deny you the damage bonus and there's no guarantee they'll succeed. In that way, the bonus is working 'well', as you say.

If they do happen to get through the temp hp, then good thing you just got a full slate when you hit. When you still have the temp hp, you get the damage bonus 'instead' as compensation.

Now, it is _entirely_ possible they meant to take the clause out entirely. If you like it that way, run with it and take it out entirely. If you keep the clause, it should apply when you start the attack with temp hp.

 

[Garthanos]

The _potential_ to lose the temp hp is there, of course, but that just encourages your enemies to attack you to deny you the damage bonus and there's no guarantee they'll succeed. In that way, the bonus is working 'well', as you say.

If they do happen to get through the temp hp, then good thing you just got a full slate when you hit. When you still have the temp hp, you get the damage bonus 'instead' as compensation.

I want to say it again ... I love the shiney new defendery cast that BRV now has instead of being a route in to strikerhood. those who would like the bonus a little more reliable or with a throw back strikerish cast... might have to pull in a house rule like these feats.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan...battlerager-vigor-expansions.html#post4851936

 

[Nail]

"Do I have to have the temporary hit points before I roll to hit in order to gain the damage bonus?

As much as I'd love to follow the literal RAW here, it's pretty clear you have to have the THPs before you roll the attack. keterys has the right of it.

Given how fights usually go down, the BRV fighter will lose his THPs 4 times out of 5 before his turn comes 'round again, and thus not have the +1 (or +2, with hammers) damage.

 

[Garthanos]

As much as I'd love to follow the literal RAW here, it's pretty clear you have to have the THPs before you roll the attack. keterys has the right of it.

Given how fights usually go down, the BRV fighter will lose his THPs 4 times out of 5 before his turn comes 'round again, and thus not have the +1 (or +2, with hammers) damage.

yup... if you crunch an opponent the attack against the next adversary is likely to be boosted or in an opponent thinks it might be a better idea to leave you alone cause you seem a bit of a sponge absorbing all of his damage.... its an extra bit more to smack him with so he pays attention. If you get an attack opportunity that is out of turn... then that is somewhat likely to be boosted. Way more defender... you must keep hitting me or you will regret it.

 

[Larrin]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is how Opportunity attacks/combat challenge attacks fit in with this.....and to me this seems to be an interesting dynamic to consider. When the BR has temp hp, his OA/CC are bumped up just a little, not so much that its going to send anyone over the moon, but enough that the monster has 1 more reason not to ignore the defender. Likewise, OA's/CC will now give him temp hp, which again forces the monsters to attack him or else he'll get pumped up and is much more likely to have his extra damage boost on his turn. The bonus damage isn't really a selling point of the class feature, but it is nice enough that people who want to wear chain and use an axe will consider it, and figure out ways to benefit from it.

Anyway, the more the enemy prevents the defender from using his powers, the more the enemy is doing what the defender wants them to.

 

[Garthanos]

Anyway, the more the enemy prevents the defender from using his powers, the more the enemy is doing what the defender wants them to.

I do like how my Empathic Vigor feat takes that a step further.... In what feels like a less passive way. (if you hurt my friends you will regret it -- not just if you fail to hurt me). Actually I can almost picture the Empathic Vigor boost to Dragonborn for whom its a matter of honor, or for Half-Elves for whom empathy seems very appropriate. (Deva fighters seem so unlikely the other options might have to be included)

 

[Nail]

FWIW, I played my BRV (Chain+hammer) Fighter last night in 2 combats...and got the damage bonus from THPs about three times. (Our warlord deserves the credit for making 2 out of three of those happen, IIRC, from Commander's Strike.) Enemies would burn through my THPs before my turn came around again, and so no BRV damage bonus.

As I thought, the damage bonus is not significant, and it's not really worth staying in chain for.

Ironically, upgrading to scale (or plate) will mean I'm more likely to keep my THPs round-to-round, and thus would be more likely to benefit from an ability which relied on retaining THPs - like the BRV damage bonus.