Because there's more motion in the ocean...

[AIM-54]

Just for the record, I did some figuring for a ship propelled by bound water elementals (which neatly sidesteps the issue of having steam power, and reduces/eliminates the need for sail, making iron-clad vessels more practical):

488,000 GP, not including the cost of armoring the thing. It does include the actual vessel, the bound elementals, cannon and shot, etc. I'm still trying to figure out how much armor would cost - but that should get you a decent ship with something on the order of 36-40 guns. What's that? A smallish frigate?

It's a bit smaller than the Constitution, which had 44 guns, but probably comparable as a frigate.

 

[Xath]

Just for the record, I did some figuring for a ship propelled by bound water elementals (which neatly sidesteps the issue of having steam power, and reduces/eliminates the need for sail, making iron-clad vessels more practical):

488,000 GP, not including the cost of armoring the thing. It does include the actual vessel, the bound elementals, cannon and shot, etc. I'm still trying to figure out how much armor would cost - but that should get you a decent ship with something on the order of 36-40 guns. What's that? A smallish frigate?

Isn't this slavery? And if so, what are the moral implications of extraplanar slavery on the ringed continent?

 

[The_Universe]

It's a bit smaller than the Constitution, which had 44 guns, but probably comparable as a frigate.

If I recall correctly, that would put it right at the size and armament for a regular frigate - the Constitution was very heavily armed for her classification, which meant that the British (and French, however briefly) ordered their captains not to commit frigates against ours, since we outgunned them. I have a copy of the text of one of the Birtish orders (demanding that commodore's commti nothing less than a ship of the line in battle) in my thesis, somewhere. Which is just a long way of saying that the Constitution and her sisters were actually Super - Frigates, if such a classification can be said to exist.

Isn't this slavery? And if so, what are the moral implications of extraplanar slavery on the ringed continent?

I don't know - is it slavery? Is summoning an elmental or a monster extraplanar kidnapping? Do elementals count as free beings? Do they have minds and feelings, or do humanoids just project them onto the pseudo-creatures? Is it OK to summon them to fight in a war at your whim? Is it extraplanar theft every time a gatway is opened to the elemental plane of water, and fresh water flows from it?

It's up to you to split the philosophical hairs - people summon elementals. Some have even been bound for so long that they've remained here for thousands of years (like the ones you fought in Khaz Barok). Do you think it's apropriate?

Perhaps more importantly, can you think of a better way to propel a boat that doesn't require the sudden and unlikely discovery of steam power (which would undoubtedly be cheaper than magical elemental binding, anyway)?

 

[The_Universe]

On an unrelated real life note, if we can't play this weekend, maybe we could go up to the baltimore inner harbor and look at the ship they've got there - not an ironclad, but still interesting inspiration.

 

[Xath]

I don't know - is it slavery? Is summoning an elmental or a monster extraplanar kidnapping? Do elementals count as free beings? Do they have minds and feelings, or do humanoids just project them onto the pseudo-creatures? Is it OK to summon them to fight in a war at your whim? Is it extraplanar theft every time a gatway is opened to the elemental plane of water, and fresh water flows from it?

It's up to you to split the philosophical hairs - people summon elementals. Some have even been bound for so long that they've remained here for thousands of years (like the ones you fought in Khaz Barok). Do you think it's apropriate?

Perhaps more importantly, can you think of a better way to propel a boat that doesn't require the sudden and unlikely discovery of steam power (which would undoubtedly be cheaper than magical elemental binding, anyway)?

I dunno. We "paid" the elemental we summoned. I was just wondering if there was a pre-standing viewpoint that the kingdom took.

As for other methods of propulsion, what about Quall's Feather Token (Fan). That's what it's there for. You could find a way to make a similar permanant item that could be activated at will, or just keep a stock of tokens on board.

 

[AIM-54]

If I recall correctly, that would put it right at the size and armament for a regular frigate - the Constitution was very heavily armed for her classification, which meant that the British (and French, however briefly) ordered their captains not to commit frigates against ours, since we outgunned them. I have a copy of the text of one of the Birtish orders (demanding that commodore's commti nothing less than a ship of the line in battle) in my thesis, somewhere. Which is just a long way of saying that the Constitution and her sisters were actually Super - Frigates, if such a classification can be said to exist.

It's somewhat more complicated than that, as the Frigate classification goes up to ~60 guns and the power of a broadside can vary depending on the weight of the guns (long cannon/carronade and the variations therein). I believe the Constitution may have been originally built as a 44 gun ship, but could carry more (the FAS has it carrying 54 guns)

But that class of US frigate were generally more powerful than standard frigates, but our 40 gun ship would probably fall under a standard frigate designation.

 

[The_Universe]

I dunno. We "paid" the elemental we summoned. I was just wondering if there was a pre-standing viewpoint that the kingdom took.

As for other methods of propulsion, what about Quall's Feather Token (Fan). That's what it's there for. You could find a way to make a similar permanant item that could be activated at will, or just keep a stock of tokens on board.

But then you still have to have sails, which limits (somewhat) the benefit of armoring your ship. All you have to do is knock down a mast, and she's dead in the water.

I'm sure you could permanence an item with "gust of wind" (another option I looked at) but I judged it to be not worth the cost - because you'd be back at the "if the enemy knocks down a mast, we're f'ed" scenario.*

In order to make an armored vessel with cannon work (and thus exploit your comparitive advantage) you need to have something that doesn't need sails to go.

*I'm sure because I looked it up.

 

[The_Universe]

It's somewhat more complicated than that, as the Frigate classification goes up to ~60 guns and the power of a broadside can vary depending on the weight of the guns (long cannon/carronade and the variations therein). I believe the Constitution may have been originally built as a 44 gun ship, but could carry more (the FAS has it carrying 54 guns)

But that class of US frigate were generally more powerful than standard frigates, but our 40 gun ship would probably fall under a standard frigate designation.

I know in the Quasi-War with France, we had "Frigates" that fielded as many as 72 guns (though she was a bit sluggish). That's more in-line with what the "Super Frigate" comment was about.

Anyway, our The Lady Rhynn 40* should be safely in the realm of Frigatude. Agreed?

(You can name her whatever you want if you build her, but I thought it was better than just calling it "the ship")

 

[The_Universe]

I started a general thread about Ironclad propulsion here: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=128952 . Peruse if you're interested.

 

[AIM-54]

I know in the Quasi-War with France, we had "Frigates" that fielded as many as 72 guns (though she was a bit sluggish). That's more in-line with what the "Super Frigate" comment was about.

Aha. I was not familiar with that particular piece of info. Interesting.

Anyway, our The Lady Rhynn 40* should be safely in the realm of Frigatude. Agreed?

(You can name her whatever you want if you build her, but I thought it was better than just calling it "the ship")

Absolutely, Frigatude it is!

Are the foundry's building other frigates/ships of the line going to make them ironclads as well, or will they be more traditional sailing ships? Is it possible we might be at the point where we get the slightly odd combination ships, with both sails and steam/whatever we come up with propulsion? As far as we know are the Dracs fielding mostly sailing ships or do they have significant numbers of ironclads as well?

Whew. I'll stop there.