BECMI-style Racial Classes (Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, etc)

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
The other direction I can think of, would be to make each class-race with their own specialized "sub-classes".
Elf: Arcane Archer, Enchanter [but somehow different than the Wizard subclass, like a "Morgan le Faye" illusionist/enchanter?], Griffon Knight [druid-paladin-protector of the wood kinda thing]
Dwarf: Forge-Priest, Giant-slayer, Lurker [a bit of thief and a bit of assassin?]
Halfling: Slinger [your farm-folk-hero, amazing missile/range fighter and slippery stealthy guy, a classic-style "fighter/rogue", as above], Dale Defender [halfling virtuous/chivalrous fighter, but no "paladin" powers], Burglar [standard/special thiefy business].

But that seemed like a looooot of work and offers a bit more option/diversity than the Basic race-classes entailed. Still, cool idea, I think.

[EDIT: In that case, the "racial" abilities would go in the "base class" with, what we now think of as "class abilities" being devoted to the subclass. Maybe some minor magely, fightery, thiefy ability, tied to the base class. "Spellcasting", obviously, instead of being the 1st level class ability for elves, would just be under the "Elf class" with, then details/specifics of that dependent on the subclass the player selects. At least, that's how it's now kickin' around in my brain. /EDIT]
 
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GreenTengu

Adventurer
So, I am growing more and more dissatisfied with the handling of non-human races in D&D-- they're not sufficiently different from humans, race has too little effect on character design, racial abilities are a one-time deal at 1st, and so forth. (Ironic, given that 4th and 5th have actually improved upon this compared to AD&D and 3e.)


You posted this a month ago, but I will make it clear the pitfalls of your whole mentality.

Pigeon-holing a race is not going to make them seem more distinct from humans, it is just going to make the entirety of the race seem like a very specific kind of human.

And... that doesn't work. Every race, by definition, needs to be able to functionally meet all needs of its society-- it need to be able to have people specialized in all sorts of different fields. If every single person in a society has the same specialty and the same abilities, then the society instantly fails right there. They would naturally either die off or wind up in a symbiotic relationship with a different race that could provide the skills it would need to survive and thrive as a society.

The other thing you DEFINITELY want to avoid is "Race X is best at A, Race Y is best at B and Race Z is best at C". In such a case naturally the class choice is going to dictate the racial choice and you are going to end up in a situation where certain Race/Class combinations are never going to be chosen outside of someone "roleplay" i.e. they don't give a damn about positively contributing to the party and they are creating a malfunctioning character for the hell of it just because. But under normal circumstances, this presents the issue above-- a race needs to be able to function as an independent society which means not everyone can have identical specialties-- and the idea that only those who have one particular specialty among a race can ever rise to heroes is just.. lame. Uninspired. It is a demonstration of sucky game design.

5th Editions goal, perhaps a goal they have not achieved, was that all races could bring something unique to the table. Perhaps all Dwarfs, regardless of class, have a certain stripe of Fighter. This doesn't mean that they are the best of the best Fighters, in fact some of their abilities might get nullified by what one automatically gets in that class and so their abilities are best suited in a different class, but still... regardless of your class, you seem part Fighter.

Other races, like Halfling, attempted to offer something that would be universally beneficial regardless of your class.

This seems like the best handling of races I have ever seen. Giving racial classes of any sort would be a disastrously terrible idea. It would limit the actual options of class/race combinations that would actually be playable regardless of how you went about it and, as a result, limit the actual playable options by even more. If Elves are flat out, hands down he best archers and wizards, then there is never, ever a reason to play any other race if you intend to play a Wizard or a Ranger. And that's seriously screwed up.
 

Erik42

First Post
Your idea hearkens back to the Basic/Expert D&D rules in which Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings were classes. The bottom line is that it is your game and you can do whatever you want with it. Make the races their own classes or just limit or alter the way the races can play various classes. Add or eliminate races if you like. Keep game balance in mind; if you give a race an advantage, you need to do something to balance it out - that was the rationale for racial level limits in 1E AD&D. The demi-human races had a variety of special abilities while humans had nothing. In the 5E, humans really seem to be the ones who are stacked with a +1 to every stat. That seems to more than make up for the special abilities of most of the races.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
Problem is, I'm stuck on the abilities. The Elf is probably easiest, since they're originally a Fighter/Mage. Give them Ranger casting, tune the spell list, and then fill out their other stuff. Gnome isn't hard, either, since it's got a lot of magical abilities to play with. The ones that are killing me are Dwarf and Halfling, because I don't know what sort of toys to give them without making them inferior clones of the Fighter and Rogue.

I see you've already decided you don't need racial classes, so my comment is late...

I was going to suggest two possible routes to follow to design racial classes, depending on what are the non-racial classes allowed in the game.

If you were going to have only Fighters, Wizards, Clerics, and Rogues, then you could easily pilfer abilities from excluded classes, e.g. look into the Druid and Ranger and re-use some of their features for the Elf class. I think [MENTION=92511]steeldragons[/MENTION] have already provided excellent suggestions about this!

If you want to use all PHB classes, then you need more unique features for the racial classes, and you need to design them yourself. I would still look around among generally available options (feats, spells, subclasses etc.) in case I would be willing to remove them from general availability and turn them into racial class-only features. Anyway, I'd try to focus on a few key stereotypes for each demihuman race, and design (or re-use) features around them:

Elf - archery, arcane magic, swashbuckling, enhanced perception
Dwarf - underground exploration, resistance to magic, weapons knowledge, resilience
Halfling - bravery, stealth, luck, sociality

And... that doesn't work. Every race, by definition, needs to be able to functionally meet all needs of its society-- it need to be able to have people specialized in all sorts of different fields. If every single person in a society has the same specialty and the same abilities, then the society instantly fails right there. They would naturally either die off or wind up in a symbiotic relationship with a different race that could provide the skills it would need to survive and thrive as a society.

This could be true in some games, but it is a completely flawed idea for others.

First of all, classes don't necessarily represent or correspond to society roles. Before 5e, society roles were not explicitly represented mechanically (this occasionally created problems in some games, e.g. a lot of people not being able to believe that the head of a religion didn't have to be a high-level Cleric). In 5e we have backgrounds to actually represent your role in society, not classes (although in the final PHB the idea got slightly watered down when they replaced Commoner with Folk Hero). Classes more properly represent your role in the adventures. If you want, you can then have a fantasy world where "Wizard" is a profession, but this is not the universal truth.

That said, a lot of games of D&D just don't care for PC's society roles at all. Originally D&D is a game about adventures, and that's how the classes were always designed. An "Elf" class is a perfectly valid concept, when the game is only about adventurers, and that "Elf" is simply a short name for "Elven adventurer class". It doesn't mean all elves belong to the Elf class, just that all elves adventurers do. And if the fantasy world being used in this game has Elves living secluded in their mysterious cities, Dwarves living closed in their mountains, and Halflings rarely leaving their shires, it makes a lot of sense that the few who are seen in the adventures are adventurers.

Note that this is not necessarily what I prefer personally... I'm just saying that the assumption that all demihuman races need to have fully-defined societies similar to humans, is not the only way. And it actually might even work against the otherwise very good purpose (IMO) of trying to make races more interesting by being different.
 

GreenTengu

Adventurer
That said, a lot of games of D&D just don't care for PC's society roles at all. Originally D&D is a game about adventures, and that's how the classes were always designed. An "Elf" class is a perfectly valid concept, when the game is only about adventurers, and that "Elf" is simply a short name for "Elven adventurer class". It doesn't mean all elves belong to the Elf class, just that all elves adventurers do. And if the fantasy world being used in this game has Elves living secluded in their mysterious cities, Dwarves living closed in their mountains, and Halflings rarely leaving their shires, it makes a lot of sense that the few who are seen in the adventures are adventurers.

Note that this is not necessarily what I prefer personally... I'm just saying that the assumption that all demihuman races need to have fully-defined societies similar to humans, is not the only way. And it actually might even work against the otherwise very good purpose (IMO) of trying to make races more interesting by being different.

Okay, look. Here is why that sentiment is crap.

First, consider that you are talking about an entire SPECIES. At least a full NATION of people. Independently existing, capable of surviving on their own.

Well, to begin with-- if the society has ever advanced beyond the most basic of tribes, then you are going to inevitable have class stratification. Even if your people are the most extreme communists in the book, assuming the race has a steady supply of food, lumber, rock, metal, leather and so forth-- which they MUST in order to have been able to survive in this world, we can easily surmise that the race has farmers, woodcutters, quarry workers, miners, shepards/herders, smiths, and leatherworkers.
Does the race have a home? Great! Then you have architects and construction workers. Do they dress like cavemen? If not, they have designers, tailors, jewelers....

You get the idea here. Point is we are talking about a whole gamut of labor going from the unskilled labor that requires virtually no education to requiring a fair bit of education. And this group of people are going to have a culture of their own differing from job to job.

Now, on top of this you are going to have those people whose purpose in the society is not going to involve much work at all. It'll be all about decision-making and delegation. And they will have thus more free time to pursue educational and recreational goals. The ruling class, the clergy, the aristocracy... they are going to differ extraordinarily from the lower classes. They are not going to have the same values and ideals, habits or personality. It is just simply impossible. And this is why portrayal of demihuman races tends to suck-- the ignorance of the simple fact that you aren't going to have a living species that universally has the same personality and same abilities.

Finally, you are going to have a counter-culture. This is inevitable because a people's idealized images of themselves are never going to match the reality. Whenever the overall culture swings too far in a direction, a counter-culture is going to spring up to push in the other direction. If the society is racist, the counter culture will be anti-racist. If the society is religious, the counter culture will be anti-religious. If the society is materialistic, the counter-culture will be anti-materialistic. And all of this can work in reverse too. Generally it doesn't work along the axis of good vs. evil, although you'll hardly ever convince people on extreme sides of the divide of this, it is more of a Law vs. Chaos thing. Counterculture members generally come from the middle class and upper-lower class, members who generally feel that they are being judged unfairly by the current values of the society and then people in the lower class follow them.

So once one starts to get their head around the nebulous thing that a society really is and how it is layered, one can begin to understand the folly of how the portrayal of races as clones rolled off an assembly line really is. Of course, little of this has to do with class roles, but it does have a lot to do with backgrounds and fundamental assumptions that all members of a race will have exactly the same skills and abilities.

Next, you have to consider what a society needs in terms of class roles.
First, the easy one. Does the society have a standing army? Has the army ever been capable of winning a war? If so, then guess what? You have to have Fighters, Barbarians or Rangers of some sort. Of course, this is the easy one. When OD&D used demihuman classes, it was attempting to create the race's version of a basic soldier.

Of course, Ranger societies exist outside of racial and national boundaries. Those who leave their society and become Rangers do not need to be of a part any particular race. They are dedicated to the protection of the forest and pretty much welcoming to anyone. Of course, there are some societies that naturally have hunters and scouts that would naturally utilize the same skills and abilities as Rangers do, those that live close to the wild and rely mostly on hunting-- Elves, Goblins, Orcs, Gnolls.... races like these would have Rangers. Maybe in exclusion to Fighters, but not definitely so.

Next, does the race have gods? Do the gods actually assist them? If not, your race has already been wiped out of existence. There is no possibility they could have survived the threats of their world or stood up against enemies who have priests if they have none. If so, then one could well presume, as all editions of D&D did, that the gods are more prone to answering the prayers of those who have shown them extreme dedication and that there is an organizations or at least individuals totally devoted to the divinity. Guess what? This means you DO have Clerics! Cleric MUST be an option for your race. Now, I suppose more feral and wild races might exclusively have "Shamans" or "Witch Doctors" (i.e. Druids instead of Clerics), but at the base you have a separate class of people here.
Oh, and if the race's god ever has battle-hardened champions that enforce their will (and what god doesn't?) then they have some sort of order of "Paladins" whether or not they use the name "Paladin".

Next, let's consider the Rogue class. The Rogue class can represent many things. First, there are thieves or other criminals among your race. If there aren't, you haven't created a race-- you have created a group of 2-dimensional strawmen. Every nation, every people are going to have thieves or assassins or similar sorts, it is inevitable. Rogues also can be dedicated scouts or spies for the race's military, they can be scholars or diplomats, they can be skilled craftsmen or mechanic. In short, Rogues are a catchall class that represent so many aspects that every single race needs to have that it is impossible to have a race with any sort of civilization or culture who does not have some sort of Rogue.

Finally, Wizard. You know-- the whole presupposition as to why technology in D&D worlds fails to ever advance is because magic does everything that technology would do. Thing is... if a whole people don't have any access to this power and yet are supposed to have build large cities... are supposed to militarily keep up with their rivals and enemies who do have it? They'd be gone. There is just no way they could manage it. Every race is going to have some one dedicated to studying the arcane arts. Although they might not have the exact trappings of the Wizard, they would be mechanically close enough to count. You might just explain the way they go about creating their effects (i.e. instead of memorizing spells, they craft runes and when they use the spell the power of the rune is expelled.)

Now, there are other classes that can just spring up even if it isn't the primary focus of a people.
Bard-- there is nothing biologically that would prevent any race from learning Bardic arts from any other race. Although Bard is a far too narrowly defined class for its key abilities since, yes, I can imagine not every race having a giant focus on music... but, it is still something that all could accomplish.
Sorcerer, Warlock - Yeah, these have very little to do with the race itself and more how an individual has been affected by supernatural forces. This means there are very, very few peoples who could be said to never develop these abilities.


Do you begin to understand the picture yet? You cannot put out one class and say "This represents absolutely everything every single elf in existence is capable of doing" or even "This represents absolutely everything any elf who chooses to adventure is capable of learning" because among a single people there are going to be divisions and specialties.

The only way it makes sense, the ONLY way-- is if there is no such thing as a race at all. If elves never, ever, EVER exist as their own culture or nation-- EVER. They never have and they never, ever will. The only time Elves have ever existed is when they had the other races on hand to fill every single aspect of their society needed for societal survival from the very first time there was such a thing as an "elf"-- and even then, EVEN THEN, to posit that it is biologically impossible for them to learn other classes is madness. It in the very least presumes that every single Elf in all of existence has precisely the same personality, same background, same interests, same societal role, same inclinations and same drives and motivations and ambitions.... And that is not a RACE. That is a CHARACTER. That is one very specific character.


So, one last time-- the whole idea of racial classes is stupid. The idea of hardline racial class limitations is stupid. Even the idea of a racial starting classes is stupid. Because none of it, NONE of it, makes any god damn sense if your game has a depth beyond an 8-bit dungeon crawling action video game or a maturity or comprehension level above that of elementary school literature and history class.

You couldn't even create a class and try to say "Well, here is your standard elf" because what the flip would that even be? The guy dedicated to the Elvish God who channels his goodness and blessings onto the world as "standard" as the Elven mystical scholar in his ivory tower keeping the most ancient secrets of the world who is just as "standard" as the master huntsmen who protects the Elven enclave who is just as "standard" as the penniless Elven trickster who uses his stealth and sleight-of-hand to play tricks and cons on his fellow Elves who is just as "standard" as the one who taps into her ancient fay heritage to channel brilliant magical powers who is just as "standard" as the Elf who is at one with nature and befriends the animals and can become one with them who is just as "standard" as the golden-armored champion of her people armed with a spear and shield and ready to defend the enclave against all who tresspass there...

Every single one is just as much "standard" as any other one. Every single one through a series of unfortunate events could end up separated from his people and end up rounded up in a group of adventurers. So there IS no such thing as a standard Elven adventurer-- because not only can you not craft a class that represents every single possible member of the society, not every single member of the society has all the skills and abilities of every single other member of the society. And it doesn't have to match whatever the hell you think "human" society looks like either. It just merely needs to have division of labor and specialization, two hallmarks without which you do not have civilization.

You know, maybe that is part of the reason idiots keep insisting Elves need so many endless subraces that are statistically ideal for every class in the book. It is because other idiots keep insisting that Elves can only have one class and only one class and must perfectly match one single Character exactly without the slightest of deviations and then an idea pops into their head that seems "elvish" but doesn't 100% match that one exact character the other idiots seem to be willing to call an "elf" and so they think a whole separate subrace is in order... when in fact, all these different "subraces" probably just represent different members of the same exact society.
 

BigVanVader

First Post
Hobgoblin, I haven't read that giant post yet, but I always operated under the assumption that PCs are usually atypical members of their society/race/culture/whatever. That the whole reason they travel into dungeons and risk their lives for gold and riches are because they're isolated from what they consider "normal" in some fundamental way.

I dunno. That idea always seemed really cool to me.
 

GreenTengu

Adventurer
Hobgoblin, I haven't read that giant post yet, but I always operated under the assumption that PCs are usually atypical members of their society/race/culture/whatever. That the whole reason they travel into dungeons and risk their lives for gold and riches are because they're isolated from what they consider "normal" in some fundamental way.

I dunno. That idea always seemed really cool to me.

Yes-- most PCs should probably derive from the counterculture sector of their society since they don't quite "fit in" enough to find equally productive work in their homeland in an industry valued for who and what they are rather than taking up the mantle of a murderhobo mercenary and wandering the lands on the winds, delving into beast filled caverns in search of whatever scraps they might find there and helping whomever needs it and has a couple gold to toss their way.

All the more reason why racial classes are nonsense. We aren't even dealing with the idealized member of the society who is best at whatever it is one assumes that the race is best at and defines them solely on such abilities and merits-- we are specifically dealing with members of the society who probably fail to meet those expectations to some degree.

You aren't likely to get the Elven Archer and the Dwarven Shieldmaster if those happen to be what one arbitrarily decides are the best of the best of the best of their people-- you are more likely to end up with the Elven Swashbuckler and the Dwarven Musketeer.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Hobgoblin: I'm more or less on your side in this debate, but you probably should dial it back just a bit. A couple of times there you let your passion get the better of you.

First, while I agree with where you end up - single 'standard' class per race makes no sense - I don't actually agree with how you get there. You neglect the possibility that the culture of the race could be both alien and also that individuals would still have separate life paths and experiences. I disagree for example that standing army implies the presence of fighters or visa versa that the presence of fighters implies a standing army. Presumably, a fighting force could be composed of any class capable of adventuring. Standing armies imply nation-state organization and hierarchical social structure. But those things aren't prerequisites for military force - you could simply have a society were everyone learns to fight and organizes themselves based solely on mutual self-interest. Humans might not be very good at this sort of thing but the general idea, "Everyone head to the sound of battle", generally would simulate greater command and control than most primitive human societies were able to manage anyway.

Also, your argument for hard specialization neglects the possibility that Class + Background would probably be sufficient enough to differentiate woodworkers, tailors, and teamsters. All we'd need for most professions is simply one skill which differs between individuals.

I think what your argument does support is something closer to at least the 1e AD&D approach where each race could belong to a range of classes according to their temperament and culture, but not necessarily every class equally. Conversely, the presence of the multi-classed options suggests that non-human races might have some options for life experience not really available to humans due to differences in aptitude. For example, you might decide that only elves can truly sing magic into being, so only elves could be Bards. On the other end, if you agree that Elves should be some combination of wizards and fighters, why must they all lie in the exact middle of this spectrum? Why could some choose to neglect the fighting arts in order to focus on wizardry, or vica versa. Why does Melvior the Lame have to keep practicing with a bow when he needs a staff just to hobble around? And so forth.

Of course, it might be possible to have an entire race of clones with identical aptitude and interest, and while that is suitably alien I'm not sure it makes for that interesting of a PC race. The main reason for advocating multiple class options for each race seems to me to have a gamist reasoning - it's just more interesting to have diversity.
 

Celebrim

Legend
That the whole reason they travel into dungeons and risk their lives for gold and riches are because they're isolated from what they consider "normal" in some fundamental way.

I dunno. That idea always seemed really cool to me.

Sure. But now you are arguing that a bunch of counter-cultural rebels who live outside their own societies all end up exactly alike.
 

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
Okay, look. Here is why that sentiment is crap.

First, consider that you are talking about an entire SPECIES. At least a full NATION of people. Independently existing, capable of surviving on their own.
-snip hyper-tl;dr-yet

You don't have to like it, but the sentiment is not "crap".

The sentiment is the reason why they [single race-classes] were.

It is why OD&D through BECM had single racial classes. That was the explanation for "all dwarves are dwarves"...and, even in 1e, it was called out specifically for all non-humans that NPC demi-humans might be different classes and/or levels than PC adventurer demi-humans were "allowed" to be. The dwarf/elf/halfling society could have clerics, for example, while PC elves/dwarves/halflings could not be [until Unearthed Arcana].

Make an NPC lord/villain/wanderer that's a dwarf paladin, an elf illusionist, a halfling druid...while PCs were restricted, essentially, to Fighter and/or Thief (+ Magic-user for elves, + Illusionist for gnomes). The "Half-" races had a few more options (kind of a moot point as these weren't portrayed as having a "society" of their own), but still not anything they wanted. And, even after 1e's UA and the coming of 2e, there were more options open to non-human PCs, but still not "any race can choose any class."

That didn't happen until 3e.

So, don't like it. Fine. I agree with your general point, it doesn't "make sense" if taking a "whole society" view. But the game did not do that, or start out that way, and specifically said it didn't.

You can not argue against what already was/has happened. It was the way it was and "because the adventurer demi-humans travelling outside their people's lands are all this" was the reason why.

All of that, quite simply, is the history of this game you're playing. That is what was, what came before, what was created from scratch with naught but some books, myths and folklore (not all of them of the same quality or even what would be considered "literature") as a jumping off point...no internet to look things up, no video games, no [so-called] smart (or even cordless) phones, no in-depth anthropological or sociological examinations (though perhaps some over-/undertones).

It isn't "crap." It was the reason at the time...and still is for those using who continue to play and enjoy those editions, and several retro-clone/OSR games.
 

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