Beguiler and High Level Play

[satori01]

Solid Fog, and Figments of gods is little against such powers as Kyuss Knights, and Advanced Ancient Worm Dracolichs.

Maybe I put to much stock into the Age of Worms campaign, but I really do think like Against the Giants, or Temple of Elemental Evil, classic campaigns all, Age of Worms will be in the same vein.
That is alot of people who's primary experience, who's shared experience of D&D is going to be an environment intensly hostle to what a Beguiler can do.

I'm usually right there with you Mistwell, but this time I just disagree that Zone of Silence, or Solid Fog are going to do anything substantial against Dragotha.

 

[Piratecat]

I think it's obvious that someone who focuses on enchantment spells is going to be less effective against undead. That's true for an enchanter as well, and it's true for rogues. But true seeing doesn't make illusionists completely useless, and I'd be shocked if the average campaign had a majority of foes who were immune to the beguiler's influence.

I just don't see it as a huge problem. At worst, a DM will make sure that there are foes who aren't mind blanked (which should normally happen, anyways) so that the beguiler's player feels useful.

 

[Sejs]

I just don't see it as a huge problem. At worst, a DM will make sure that there are foes who aren't mind blanked (which should normally happen, anyways) so that the beguiler's player feels useful.

Yup. The tried and true Maximize the Fun model. If your players have a schtick, DM in such a way that the schtick is catered to at least in some fashion.

Low level game and the ranger's only favored enemy is gnolls? Feature some gnolls. Cleric has invested in a high charisma and feats to augment their ability to turn undead? Feature undead for him to blast. Player having their character be King Talker? Have some slick intrigue in the game. Find the fun and make sure it gets to see the light of day.

Have a beguiler in the party? Make sure that not everything the PCs face is immune to her efforts.

 

[Mistwell]

Solid Fog, and Figments of gods is little against such powers as Kyuss Knights, and Advanced Ancient Worm Dracolichs.

Maybe I put to much stock into the Age of Worms campaign, but I really do think like Against the Giants, or Temple of Elemental Evil, classic campaigns all, Age of Worms will be in the same vein.
That is alot of people who's primary experience, who's shared experience of D&D is going to be an environment intensly hostle to what a Beguiler can do.

I'm usually right there with you Mistwell, but this time I just disagree that Zone of Silence, or Solid Fog are going to do anything substantial against Dragotha.

Of course not. But they get high level enchantment or illusion spells like Shades. And Time stop, which allows for all sorts of nastiness. And they get Use Magic Device. And they are NOT supposed to be effective against EVERYTHING.

Nobody ever said rogues make bad high level characters because they cannot sneak attack undead. Nobody says Druids are bad characters because most of thier powers relate to outdoor locations. Nobody says Illusionists and Enchanters are not viable at high levels. Nobody says the fighter-types are not viable because their saves are too low to resist possession-type spells. Instead of saying "these characters are not viable", people instead look for ways to shore up their vulnerabilities and weaknesses.

But somehow with the Beguiler, who gets LOTS of different powers and abilities, people are outright stating that they are not viable at higher levels without ever testing the concept for a moment. Without really putting thought into how to shore up their weaknesses.

What's the deal?

 

[Henry]

I guess in the end, Satori, I'm not seeing it as that big of a problem - no more so than the Achilles' heel of any other class, really. Against Age of Worms opponents, similar arguments could be made against Rogues, assuming there are no magic items that circumvent undeads' immunity to criticals. Rogues will still have their evasion, and their trap-disabling, but not much else.

I'll bow out, now.

 

[Shadeus]

Nothing to see here. Didn't realize Power word: Kill was mind-affecting....

 

[Stalker0]

Let's also not forget Beguiler's have one of the best high level abilities I've seen in awhile, they can completely bypass SR. There are a lot of spells at high level where SR is the only defense you've got.

 

[Halcyon]

Indeed. Their 20th level ability is nice, if a bit situational.

 

[satori01]

Well I think it safe to concede that the title of this thread was a bit exagerated. Again I wonder how much fun it would be to be at the end of a campaign and be reduced to casting Time Stop and extreme use of the Use Magic Device Skill.

A high level Two Weapon Fighting Rogue wielding Undead Bane magic weapons can still deliver a potent mix of damage, even w/o Sneak Attack. Moreover the role of the Rogue, the role of a finesse attacker does not change.

Can the same be said of a Beguiler?

Funny thing is, an Illusionist I think was at their most powerful in 1e. Ultimately I think the ease of defensing Illusion and Enchantment School spells in 3.5 does not sit well with me.

 

[Mistwell]

Well I think it safe to concede that the title of this thread was a bit exagerated. Again I wonder how much fun it would be to be at the end of a campaign and be reduced to casting Time Stop and extreme use of the Use Magic Device Skill.

A high level Two Weapon Fighting Rogue wielding Undead Bane magic weapons can still deliver a potent mix of damage, even w/o Sneak Attack. Moreover the role of the Rogue, the role of a finesse attacker does not change.

Can the same be said of a Beguiler?

Funny thing is, an Illusionist I think was at their most powerful in 1e. Ultimately I think the ease of defensing Illusion and Enchantment School spells in 3.5 does not sit well with me.

You mention Undead Bane magic weapons for a rogue. That is exactly my point - you added something to them to make them be able to handle one of their weaknesses. But you don't want to discuss the options for a high level beguiler to strengthen their weaknesses. It's not like Undead Bane magic weapons are in the rogue character description...but all you have analyzed is what is in the text of the Beguiler character description.

Also, I don't think spells like Shades are weak. They WILL be used by a high level Beguiler, effectively. And with the NORMAL addition of magic items, spells, feats, abilities, and prestige class abilities, it will be even more powerful.

As for your dislike of the power level of illusionists, well that is why I like the Shadowcraft Mage, Shadowcrafter, and Shadow Adept prestige classes. They do one of the things prestige classes should do - make suboptimal choices into balanced choices. And it was mentioned earlier in the thread that people think the Shadowcraft Mage is overpowered. I do not at all agree with that. While I think any class can be abused, overall I think that particular prestige class is a very well thought out, balanced, and creative prestige class (and one I would love to play some day).