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D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

pemerton

Legend
I think complaining that 4e stat blocks for NPCs/creatures don't include Animate Dead spells or the like is similar to complaining that Dungeon World stat blocks don't include a to-hit number.

Non-combat resolution in 4e D&D only has the players declaring actions (via skill challenges). The GM narrates the framing and the consequences as fit the fiction. Stat blocks aren't needed.
 

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Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I absolutely agree with this when it comes to popping up from zero hit points. Topping up from your upper range feels like an absolutely different thing, though! I call it the "Popping Up/Topping Up HP problem".

I'd prefer it if there were bigger consequences for dropping, but I understand why some people loathe the "death spiral".
The system I like the best simply prevents you from coming back until after the combat. Someone sees to you (possibly during combat, possibly after) and when the fights over you roll on a table with a bunch of modifiers (how quickly were you seen to, how far down are you, was magical healing or herbal medicine involved, etc.) And that determines how bad it was and how much down time is required to heal you back up.
 


Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
DnDNext was such a good time, when there was stuff like martials each getting their own resource in power dice, each with different ways to spend them, and the Sorcerer was imagined as someone whose bloodline manifested the more they spent their magic, so they start the day as a regular caster but end the day as a melee half-dragon...
The Next sorcerer would definitely have been a cool class on its own.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I remember the days when powerful Fiends had a host of spell like abilities that were mostly there for flavor. Sure, a Marilith can use Animate Dead to crank out some zombies, but if you're fighting a Marilith, a zombie shouldn't be much of a threat to you (yes, yes, I know, you could come up with a trick or distraction using zombies, but really, this is a window dressing ability if a Marilith is just gated in to fight you).

On the one hand, you can use abilities like this to explain how a Marilith would take over a city or be a threat to more than just the PC's, but you don't really need a curated list of abilities. I remember a really nasty adventure in Dungeon where a red dragon has equipped fanatical kobold minions with beads from a Necklace of Fireballs to run up and suicide bomb the PC's. How did the dragon get all these Necklaces? Not important to the adventure.

If you want your Marilith to have an undead army, they have an undead army. There's any number of possible explanations that make sense for the campaign outside of "well they have animate dead as a power".

I'm not saying there's no value to such abilities, but when you load up a major enemy with spell like and psionic powers that it probably will never use, that's bloat. Like, I miss spellcasting dragons, but I fully admit that a lot of the time, casting a spell was inferior to the other options a dragon has to work with. Ditto with making sure everyone knows a Silver Dragon has an ability to take on a humanoid form. If that's important to the game, there's any number of reasons why they can do it, up to and including having it as a special ability if you decree they ought to.

If you want your dragon to have a labyrinth made with stone shape and walls of stone, it's not necessary to clutter up the stat block with such powers, you can just say "he's an Earth dragon/he's a prodigy/he made offerings to Tiamat/he's some kind of Dragon-Warlock".
Having abilities like that be in the rules makes me feel a lot more justified in making use of them than just deciding because I think it would be cool.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I was so annoyed by the Next playtest. As much as I hated that they were just tossing 4e in a ravine and trying to get everyone to instantly stop playing it, I was willing to engage with the playtest to develop the next game. I ran every adventure, I filled out every survey.

I saw a lot of amazing, interesting ideas, none of which made it into the final product, without any real explanation as to why other than "oh not enough people liked it". Even after the PHB was out, this sort of nonsense continued.

Who remembers the Playtest Ranger from UA? Completely redesigned, even approved to be played for one season in Adventurer's League. I never heard anyone say anything bad about it (other than the old school 2HD at level 1, lol), a lot of people liked it...and it never materialized. Anywhere.

The whole thing just vanished into the aether, as near as I could tell.

The whole thing left me wondering if anyone at WotC really cared about their playerbase at all.
4e and 5e both have pretty much led me to the conclusion that they don't, or at least that making their customers happy isn't a high priority for them.
 


Zardnaar

Legend
BitD, everyone I knew in gaming (online and in person) thought 3e was a massive hit, massive resurgence, massive revitalization of the brand, etc. After all, it brought D&D back to prominence after a decade of 2e slowly dying and White Wolf being the hot thing in gaming and so on. And look at all this space in the FLGS that used to be devoted to the #3-12 placing RPGs like Shadowrun or GURPS or RIFTS or whatever now dedicated to these 3pp D20 products! Why it must be a new era of gaming with D&D at the helm!

And I think it was a proportion of the pie rather than actual size of the slice issue. A big portion of the people actively and publicly gaming took another look at D&D, but that population in total wasn't at a particular high point* -- not the fad era that boosted 1E and BX, nor that time when non-traditional gamers came for WoD. Maybe even a nadir*, given that many of the white wolfers didn't continue and MtG and computer games had been eating into peoples' attention and so on. 3E made D&D a big fish in the pond again, but 1E (/basic) and 5e brought in new pondwater, which certainly helps explain the difference.
*I do not have numbers for people-in-gaming at given times, if anyone does, feel free to interject them.

Or not, this is just my impression.

Think two things going on.

1. Interweb forums 2001 vs 1989.
2. 2E 1996 to 2000 vs the peak.

20 odd years ago I was aware 3E did not outsell 1E or Red box.

A decade ago had suspicions 3E didn't oursell 2E.
 

EpicureanDM

Explorer
While the whole re(re,re,re,re-)litigation on 4e is fine and all, I find this part more interesting.

How big is WotC D&D segment? How many staff? How is it possible there are these 'warring factions'? Is it C-level vs Designers? Is it Design Management vs Individual Contributors?

5e is a fence sitter of an edition. Its not saying anything too bold, and it certainly is trying to appeal to 'everyone' while appealing less to any one, and I would have assumed that was the intent.

I have to wonder what direction these assumed different factions actually want to go in.
You can get a sense of the size of the team from the credits page of any recent 5e book. A lot of those credits are for artists or production folks, like the people who actually do layout for the physical books. The design team itself, the people who design the game, is probably...fifteen-ish?

Is it C-Level vs. Designers or Design Management vs. Individual Contributors? Both.

The key, as always, is not to ask how many designers there are, but who those designers are. Only two or three people currently designing 5e were on the team when 5e was launched: Crawford and Perkins. (I think Wyatt was there at launch, but left for much of 5e before recently returning.) They've been around a long time; Perkins since the TSR days, I think. If anyone's had the chance to create organizational or political power, it's those two. And yet they keep getting passed over for promotion to the top jobs in the D&D segment. Each time there's an opening in senior D&D management, someone is put in charge of Crawford and Perkins. Mearls was their boss for most of 5e's initial run. He left and Winniger took over. Now Winniger's out and Kyle Brink's the boss now, with Dan Rawson, the former Amazon and Microsoft executives, as Brink's boss. After Mearls left, what's been consistent is that the C-Level people (the people above Winniger/Brink) have put people who are largely non-game-designers in charge of D&D. Even when Mearls was in charge of D&D's design, Nathan Stewart was his boss. Nathan Stewart is a marketing guy. As you go from Mearls -> Winniger -> Brinks, the line on the graph of game design experience goes down practically logarithmically.

So is there factionalism between the C-Suite and the Designers? Probably, but likely in the Don Draper "I don't think of you at all" sort of way. It's clear that the C-Suite doesn't really care about the design of the game itself. If it did, it would install leaders who understand the game and its history. (o choose the right leaders, though, the C-Suite itself would have to know what to look for. They clearly do not and are taking advice from horrible sources. The OGL fiasco should make it clear that they don't. I think the C-Suite, including Rawson and probably Brinks to some extent, sees D&D as an Asset to be Exploited. There's friction with the Designers because they know the Designers are naughty word up, but they don't understand the game or the market, so they can't figure out how to fix it. But they've been charged to fix it and to make the numbers go up. So they get frustrated and factionalism begins.

What about Design Management vs. Individual Contributors? Again, let's focus on actual people. "Design Management" means Crawford and Perkins. They seem to be the front-line managers of the D&D design team. As I mention above, they've been around a long time. There have been big changes in the D&D design team over the past couple of years. They've probably hired almost everyone that's currently on the team. All that said, some freelancers have gone public with their negative experiences working with the D&D team, including one complaint of credit being taken for a freelancer's ideas. There's the the recent controversy with the hadozee in Spelljammer that certainly echoes the 4e anecdote in the OP about someone jacking up monster hp just prior to publication. I get a real "TV showrunner" vibe from Crawford and Perkins, but the negative version of that stereotype that portrays showrunners rewriting every script and taking the lion's share of credit behind the scenes. Does that produce factionalism? It might. There could be a group of junior D&D designers who want to align themselves with the powerful "showrunners" and others who think things should be run differently. I listen to too many TV writers' podcasts, though, so there's probably some bias and framing creeping in.
 

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