I think what were looking for here is which class has the most varied and effective multiclassing options available.
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Best Base Class for Multiclassing?
- Thread starter rhm001
- Start date
inati
First Post
I think people are concentrating too much on the stats and not enough on the synergies. Of course, stats are absolutely important for multiclassing purposes and they encompass a large portion of the synergy equation, but it is not the end all be all trump card.
For example, look at how the roles mesh together. What would defenders benefit the most from? Strikers? Controllers? Leaders? Rangers and Rogues share the same primary stat, but would a Rogues really need Ranger powers seeing as how they are both strikers?
On top of this, each class has its own "sub-class" (I lack a better word for it) which further adds yet another dimension and even creates slight nuances in class roles. For example, a wizard could concentrate on AoE spells or hard control spells that cause status effects and debuffs, or a ranger could go with specialization in ranged or melee. These decisions change the flavor of a class sunstantially, and how they mesh with the both the original class/subclass and the potential multiclass.
In short, although important, it's not about really about how well the primary or secondary stats mesh together, but more on how roles and power suites create synergy with each other.
To address the OP (who was thinking of class synergies btw), I think each class thus far has some viable multiclassing options and that the designers did a good job in spreading it out so that there isn't a single class that is dominant in terms of multiclassing synergies. As for later on, when they start adding in more classes (PHB2, Dragon, splat books, etc) this balance will probably go pear shaped
For example, look at how the roles mesh together. What would defenders benefit the most from? Strikers? Controllers? Leaders? Rangers and Rogues share the same primary stat, but would a Rogues really need Ranger powers seeing as how they are both strikers?
On top of this, each class has its own "sub-class" (I lack a better word for it) which further adds yet another dimension and even creates slight nuances in class roles. For example, a wizard could concentrate on AoE spells or hard control spells that cause status effects and debuffs, or a ranger could go with specialization in ranged or melee. These decisions change the flavor of a class sunstantially, and how they mesh with the both the original class/subclass and the potential multiclass.
In short, although important, it's not about really about how well the primary or secondary stats mesh together, but more on how roles and power suites create synergy with each other.
To address the OP (who was thinking of class synergies btw), I think each class thus far has some viable multiclassing options and that the designers did a good job in spreading it out so that there isn't a single class that is dominant in terms of multiclassing synergies. As for later on, when they start adding in more classes (PHB2, Dragon, splat books, etc) this balance will probably go pear shaped
Gloombunny
First Post
I don't think you can evaluate that just based on role. Since multiclassing really means cherry-picking desirable powers, it doesn't really matter what the overall capabilities of the class are - just what specific powers are available. For instance, a fighter could multi into warlock, not to gain more damage by getting striker abilities, but to get Summons of Khirad, which is fantastic from a defender's standpoint even though it happens to be from a striker class.
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Arakim
First Post
No matter the revision one class has, and maybe always will, be the end-all be-all adaptive choice.
Cleric.
Clerics get melee, ranged magic, decent armor, and they always have. If you can get past the fluff of a Cleric, it's a gold mine of opportunities.
ST Clerics mesh well with Fighters, Melee or Ranged Rangers (Depends on whether you are a ST or WIS Cleric), Warlords, and Paladins (For those that like to pump Wisdom and CHA).
It's hard to go wrong with a Cleric.
Cleric.
Clerics get melee, ranged magic, decent armor, and they always have. If you can get past the fluff of a Cleric, it's a gold mine of opportunities.
ST Clerics mesh well with Fighters, Melee or Ranged Rangers (Depends on whether you are a ST or WIS Cleric), Warlords, and Paladins (For those that like to pump Wisdom and CHA).
It's hard to go wrong with a Cleric.
AtomicPope
Hero
Yes, that's what I meant. But I forgot Cleric's Wis
Don't forget Wis, it gives them an untyped bonus to AoO.Andor said:
I bumped the importance of Int/Cha in Warlords because they're necessary for their Class Features. I can see how it could be secondary because it's not used for any attacks, just as attack modifiers.Andor said:
And here I thought D&D was getting away from single stat dominanceAndor said:
Clerics tend to have weak single creature attack powers and strong multicreature attack powers (some of best). If you're a Str Cleric and you multiclassed with Fighter could take a Stance or Reliable Daily, that way it should always pay off. For encounter powers use Precise powers so you'll hit more often. Utilities? I don't think I'd trade a cleric UtilityAndor said:Huh. Some interesting things to note there. Warlord and Fighter both have strength as their only primary so you'd think they were a strong combo, but they have no overlap of secondaries.
Cleric seems like a surprisingly strong multi-classing base, but what Cleric powers do you want to trade away?
Goumindong
First Post
With multi-classing its about two things
1. What you want your primary role to be
2. Whether or not you your primary and secondary stats correspond well.
The question then becomes less of "what do you want your primary class to be?" but "what do you want your secondary class to be".
If you want your secondary class to be a striker or defender then you are screwed. All of the best abilities from these classes come from class features and none of them can be replicated with reasonable success.
A multi-class rogue gets one sneak attack per encounter. A multi-class fighter gets one mark/encounter(and doesn't get combat challenge). A multi-class cleric/warlord gets one half the healing power of a cleric/warlord.
That means that there are two clear choices for secondary classes to multi-class into. The first is Cleric, the second is wizard.(Close Third is warlord, but that hurts a lot more than cleric does because the Warlord has better class features that tie into their powers and paragon paths more)
Once you know that then anything that multi-classes well into Cleric and Wizard(anything str/wis primary/secondary or int primary/secondary) is going to multi-class well.
Warlocks/Warlords multi-class well into wizards. Fighters, Rangers, Paladins, Wizards multiclass well into Clerics.
The other thing to look at is what paragon paths lend well to multi-classing(Wizards, Rangers, Warlocks are terrible at this for instance, while Warlords, Fighters, and Clerics are great)
Paragon Classes that Seem good for this are
Cleric:
Divine Oracle(Foresight! only one attack that requires a roll, reroll on attacks that target will, two very good encounter/utility powers)
Warpriest(Great for OA based Heavy Blade fighters: Warpriests Challenge = Whenever you hit with an at will melee power, you mark till the end of the encounter and get an OA against any enemy that shifts or attacks anyone other than you.)
This is not an immediate interrupt, its an OA, so you benefit from your wisdom bonus to attack. You benefit from heavy blade opportunity/Blade Opportunist and combat reflexes. Assuming you started with stats enough for those(14 dex, 16 wis, 16+str which should be possible), you get to make an at will attack against any one enemy you hit with an at will attack. Its an OA so you are looking at +9 or more to attack(wisdom + Heavy Blade Op+Blade opportunist+combat reflexes). And its an OA so it cancels movement if it hits via your fighter class ability.
This means you can make it impossible for nearly anything that provokes you to move ever(since you hit them once with the OA then mark them till the end of the encounter, and if they shift, you OA again!), or any one thing you hit with an at will to ever move if you so deem(because it can't move, or shift without provoking an OA[and the combat challenge, so realistically you could get two attacks and prevent two movements though one without the OA bonuses to attack], and with such a high bonus to OA you are very likely to hit)
Fighter:
Kensei(attack and damage, generic good melee multi-class for damage
Pit Fighter(AC and more damage, generic good melee multi-class for damage)
Iron Vanguard(A bit of extra hit points/defense for a striker as well as some pretty decent control/defender powers with all that pushing and shifting)
Paladin:
Astral Weapon: Enemies that dis-obey a mark take -2 to defenses. Nice in combination with a fighter which marks a bunch of guys.
Justicar: Specific Synergy with Inspiring Warlord level 23 encounter power.
Ranger:
NOTZING
Rogue:
Cat Burglar: Nice for defenders/front line leaders if your DM likes to use a bunch of movement powers. Good for high dex fighters. Possibly very good for high dex dwarven fighters(if such a thing exists)
Master Infiltrator: Nice for anyone with lots of AoE and wants to be invisible. Powers aren't that great though, and little synergy with anything else.
Warlock:
NOTZINK
Warlord:
Combat Veteran: For the front line Defender/striker who isn't hardy enough. High Con Dwarf + Combat Vet = Lots of hit points regained on a surge. Great str based attacks with stiff penalties on them. Encounter Utility power. Really amazing daily power.
Knight Commander: For anyone who can use heavy armor. Your allies gain +2 to attack when adjacent to you. That about says it all right there.
Wizard:
Spellstorm Mage: good for high int people who can be expected to be bloodied a lot. Class Abilities let you re-use powers.
Wizard of the Spiral Tower: Good for decent Int people who need the powers only. Since none of its attacks that have attack rolls use an implement. Otherwise fairly sub-par.
--------------------------
Yadda Yadda Yadda
Best options are Defenders/Strikers multi-classing into Controller/Leading/Defending classes.
Second is Warlord multi-classing into wizard(but not paragon multi or any paragon class)
1. What you want your primary role to be
2. Whether or not you your primary and secondary stats correspond well.
The question then becomes less of "what do you want your primary class to be?" but "what do you want your secondary class to be".
If you want your secondary class to be a striker or defender then you are screwed. All of the best abilities from these classes come from class features and none of them can be replicated with reasonable success.
A multi-class rogue gets one sneak attack per encounter. A multi-class fighter gets one mark/encounter(and doesn't get combat challenge). A multi-class cleric/warlord gets one half the healing power of a cleric/warlord.
That means that there are two clear choices for secondary classes to multi-class into. The first is Cleric, the second is wizard.(Close Third is warlord, but that hurts a lot more than cleric does because the Warlord has better class features that tie into their powers and paragon paths more)
Once you know that then anything that multi-classes well into Cleric and Wizard(anything str/wis primary/secondary or int primary/secondary) is going to multi-class well.
Warlocks/Warlords multi-class well into wizards. Fighters, Rangers, Paladins, Wizards multiclass well into Clerics.
The other thing to look at is what paragon paths lend well to multi-classing(Wizards, Rangers, Warlocks are terrible at this for instance, while Warlords, Fighters, and Clerics are great)
Paragon Classes that Seem good for this are
Cleric:
Divine Oracle(Foresight! only one attack that requires a roll, reroll on attacks that target will, two very good encounter/utility powers)
Warpriest(Great for OA based Heavy Blade fighters: Warpriests Challenge = Whenever you hit with an at will melee power, you mark till the end of the encounter and get an OA against any enemy that shifts or attacks anyone other than you.)
This is not an immediate interrupt, its an OA, so you benefit from your wisdom bonus to attack. You benefit from heavy blade opportunity/Blade Opportunist and combat reflexes. Assuming you started with stats enough for those(14 dex, 16 wis, 16+str which should be possible), you get to make an at will attack against any one enemy you hit with an at will attack. Its an OA so you are looking at +9 or more to attack(wisdom + Heavy Blade Op+Blade opportunist+combat reflexes). And its an OA so it cancels movement if it hits via your fighter class ability.
This means you can make it impossible for nearly anything that provokes you to move ever(since you hit them once with the OA then mark them till the end of the encounter, and if they shift, you OA again!), or any one thing you hit with an at will to ever move if you so deem(because it can't move, or shift without provoking an OA[and the combat challenge, so realistically you could get two attacks and prevent two movements though one without the OA bonuses to attack], and with such a high bonus to OA you are very likely to hit)
Fighter:
Kensei(attack and damage, generic good melee multi-class for damage
Pit Fighter(AC and more damage, generic good melee multi-class for damage)
Iron Vanguard(A bit of extra hit points/defense for a striker as well as some pretty decent control/defender powers with all that pushing and shifting)
Paladin:
Astral Weapon: Enemies that dis-obey a mark take -2 to defenses. Nice in combination with a fighter which marks a bunch of guys.
Justicar: Specific Synergy with Inspiring Warlord level 23 encounter power.
Ranger:
NOTZING
Rogue:
Cat Burglar: Nice for defenders/front line leaders if your DM likes to use a bunch of movement powers. Good for high dex fighters. Possibly very good for high dex dwarven fighters(if such a thing exists)
Master Infiltrator: Nice for anyone with lots of AoE and wants to be invisible. Powers aren't that great though, and little synergy with anything else.
Warlock:
NOTZINK
Warlord:
Combat Veteran: For the front line Defender/striker who isn't hardy enough. High Con Dwarf + Combat Vet = Lots of hit points regained on a surge. Great str based attacks with stiff penalties on them. Encounter Utility power. Really amazing daily power.
Knight Commander: For anyone who can use heavy armor. Your allies gain +2 to attack when adjacent to you. That about says it all right there.
Wizard:
Spellstorm Mage: good for high int people who can be expected to be bloodied a lot. Class Abilities let you re-use powers.
Wizard of the Spiral Tower: Good for decent Int people who need the powers only. Since none of its attacks that have attack rolls use an implement. Otherwise fairly sub-par.
--------------------------
Yadda Yadda Yadda
Best options are Defenders/Strikers multi-classing into Controller/Leading/Defending classes.
Second is Warlord multi-classing into wizard(but not paragon multi or any paragon class)
inati
First Post
I agree whole heartedly. Roles are not the be all end all either. Power suites play a huge role too, as I bolded in my earlier post
However, roles do play a factor in that doubling up on a role wouldn't be nearly as effective as going outside of that role. The Rogue/Ranger example was to illustrate that despite the primary stats complimenting each other perfectly, their roles would just mean they aren't getting as much as they could out of the multiclass in comparison with dipping into another discipline.But I guess the point is, it was asked what is the "best" base class to multiclass out of. If people just want to look at how stats compliment each other, then I think that is a misrepresentation on what "best" is.
Andor
First Post
The other thing to look at is: What classes have obvious gaps that multiclassing can fix?
The Warlord and Fighter have no ranged powers, this is an obvious weakness. The Warlock and Wizard have no melee powers, but probably don't need them except in a 'panic button' kind of way.
The other thing to look at is what strengths a class has that can be complemented by some additional powers.
Warlords for example are extremely good at moving their teammates around the battlefield. They have little ability to shape the field itself however, so Wizard wall and zone powers are a good match.
You know from both a stat complement and a power congruity standpoint the Warlord/Wizard multiclass looks very strong. Warlord makes for a tougher base of course and then mixing in Wizard spells for battlefield shaping and ranged attacks while the Warlord positions allies and deals melee hurt and healing.
Warzard ftw?
The Warlord and Fighter have no ranged powers, this is an obvious weakness. The Warlock and Wizard have no melee powers, but probably don't need them except in a 'panic button' kind of way.
The other thing to look at is what strengths a class has that can be complemented by some additional powers.
Warlords for example are extremely good at moving their teammates around the battlefield. They have little ability to shape the field itself however, so Wizard wall and zone powers are a good match.
You know from both a stat complement and a power congruity standpoint the Warlord/Wizard multiclass looks very strong. Warlord makes for a tougher base of course and then mixing in Wizard spells for battlefield shaping and ranged attacks while the Warlord positions allies and deals melee hurt and healing.
Warzard ftw?
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Goumindong
First Post
Not sure about the Warlock, but Wizards have close powers(I.E. melee powers), and Warlords and Fighters have ranged powers as well as the ranged basic attack option.
Danceofmasks
First Post
Stats aren't an important concern when multiclassing.
Really.
Power swap feats are by nature cherry-picking, and you don't have to choose powers that require attack rolls at all.
A few examples:
Wall of Fire (or any other auto-damaging conjuration)
Unyielding Avalanche (or any other auto-damaging Fighter stance)
What about those few exceptions that ignore class limitations?
For instance, MC Ranger as a Fighter ... and ... str-based ranger attacks usually require 2 weapons, right? Well, not an issue if I'm only ever going to get Disruptive Strike.
Multiclassing is an investment that .. on the surface .. is too costly.
Power swap feats in particular .. you're giving up a feat and a power for a power that is arguably inferior to the one you swapped out due to synergy issues.
Any such choice has to be made to count.
Really.
Power swap feats are by nature cherry-picking, and you don't have to choose powers that require attack rolls at all.
A few examples:
Wall of Fire (or any other auto-damaging conjuration)
Unyielding Avalanche (or any other auto-damaging Fighter stance)
What about those few exceptions that ignore class limitations?
For instance, MC Ranger as a Fighter ... and ... str-based ranger attacks usually require 2 weapons, right? Well, not an issue if I'm only ever going to get Disruptive Strike.
Multiclassing is an investment that .. on the surface .. is too costly.
Power swap feats in particular .. you're giving up a feat and a power for a power that is arguably inferior to the one you swapped out due to synergy issues.
Any such choice has to be made to count.
