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Best rules for large scale battles, running kingdoms?

Enforcer

Explorer
I used to be a big fan of Birthright back in the day and I'm considering running a D&D Next campaign with a similar feel--where the PCs run various guilds/temples/baronies and the like. I'm familiar with the Birthright rules for this, but are there any alternative rules (from any publisher, for any edition so long as it can be adapted) that have rules particularly well-suited to this kind of game?

I'm also looking for rule-sets that enable the running of large-scale battles in D&D.

Thank you!
 

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Stormonu

Legend
AEG (Alderac Enterainment Group) produced a supplement called "War" that handles mass combat for 3E games. It's based on the systems it uses for L5R. They also produced a supplement called "Empire", for kingdom building. Interestingly enough, Mike Mearls wrote Empire and was one of the writers for War.

There is also Battlesystem from the 1E/2E days. The 3E Miniatures handbook also has a section on handling mass combat.

If you really wanted to, you could modify the basic rules of Warhammer Fantasy Battles to handle this (Or Kings of War from Mantic games, their rules are free, but you'd have to make up stats).
 


Stormonu

Legend
Some other options I just remembered:

There is a "War Machine" rules system in the BECMI Companion ruleset for covering mass battles. It also has a section on building strongholds and ruling the surrounding lands.
The Adventurer, Conqueror, King (ACKs) system, I believe, has mass warfare and kingdom building rules.

And, many ages ago (either late in 2E or early 3E), I made up this game to abstractly handle mass combat, or as a fun side game.

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Li Shenron

Legend
There is a "War Machine" rules system in the BECMI Companion ruleset for covering mass battles.

I've used this a little bit, and personally I think it's a fun and interesting subsystem.

However, it depends on what you're looking for...

The BECMI subsystem is meant to determine the outcome of a mass battle, but it does not include the PC's actions. If used as written, it's mostly about the DM calculating stats for the rival armies and rolling dice every turn to see how many troops are killed or flee, while the players watch.

However, there is a few tweaks you can apply to make the subsystem a lot of fun:

1. Let the PC have a role in the preparation phase, e.g. gathering and rallying the troops, arranging the equipment, making battle plans etc... Mostly this falls in the "interaction pillar" of the game, but these are things that have an effect on the army stats.

2. If the PC are mid-high level (or otherwise find another explanation), let each of them be appointed as commander of one army, so that the player will directly choose the tactic of that one army at each turn. The DM runs the rest of the armies (i.e. the remaining armies on the players' side and all armies of the enemy).

3. Don't let the PC die in battle, since the players aren't controlling them directly, just assume that when you roll for number of casualties, the PCs are not among them. (You can be less forgiving if you want, e.g. you can add a % chance for PC death each turn, or perhaps only if her whole army is destroyed)

I also think that you can improve this further by including some "cut-scene" where one or more PCs are directly involved in a fight using regular combat rules, but IMO this may also slow things down too much and you kind of lose the novelty of a mass battle.

BTW, if you don't have BECMI books, you can look up these rules from the free Dark Dungeons clone (it only has some minor changes to the original).
 


Moorcrys

Explorer
The Kickstarter for Domains at War by Autarch is closed and the books aren't out yet... I think they are due out this fall. I found those rules to be far superior to War Machine - especially if you're looking for something that works with OSR games (D&D Next would work just as well with it - the math is self contained and you could plug in ACs, Hit Dice, etc. from Next just as easily). And it includes heroic excursions (sort of a zoom in on PCs in the midst of battles doing heroic stuff) in the midst of mass battles.
 
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thepriz

Explorer
Paizo just released their Ultimate Campaign hardcover book. It contains rules for kingdom building and such. This may work for you.
 

Enforcer

Explorer
Bought Empires pdf and am checking it out. Also the ACKs thing. Will report if I find anything particularly helpful. Thank you for the responses!
 

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