Bestiary 3 and Advanced Race Guide Announced

[Systole]

From Monsters as PCs - Pathfinder_OGC

• • –2 Strength, +4 Dexterity, –2 Charisma: Goblins are fast, but weak and unpleasant to be around.
  • Small: Goblins are Small creatures and gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty to their CMB and CMD, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
  • Fast: Goblins are fast for their size, and have a base speed of 30 feet.
  • Darkvision: Goblins can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
  • Skilled: +4 racial bonus on Ride and Stealth checks.
  • Languages: Goblins begin play speaking Goblin. Goblins with high Intelligence scores can choose any of these bonus languages: Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Gnoll, Gnome, Halfling, Orc.

You have to be exceptionally careful around +4 ability scores. +4 to one ability score is much more powerful than +2 to two ability scores, because it allows for a completely munchkinned character. You need to have some serious drawbacks in order to balance that, and the -2 strength really doesn't cut it, especially when all you have to do is take Weapon Finesse, which you're almost certainly taking as a dex-based character anyway.

On top of that, goblins get +4 size modifier to stealth, and +4 racial modifier to stealth. Any goblin with stealth as a class skill is going to have somewhere around +16 to +18 to stealth at first level. Throw in darkvision and a 30' move, and you have a rogue that blows any core-race-based rogue out of the water.


EDIT: I want to say that Pathfinder is my favorite system by far, and I think Paizo does a really good job generally. I just think they dropped the ball here.

 

[paradox42]

I, OTOH, have a world built around extra-powerful races, such that I don't use the Core Rules racial traits at all- they're not nearly good enough. As an example, basic Humans in my setting get +2 to every score before you add the "+2 to anything." Races aren't powerful on their own, they're powerful by comparison to other races. Balance is the key. IMO, just having one score +4 isn't really that great a departure from the rest, particularly with two -2's to compensate.

Consider, for example, that Rogue is usually called out as one of the weakest core-class options- perhaps a 1st-level Goblin with Stealth that high really won't look so bad against other PCs using other classes. Sure he can hide and scout, but he'll be relatively easy to squash in a fight, won't he?

Anyway, back on topic; I'm mostly curious how the official system will compare to the systems I've found on the Net, particularly Golden's Race-Building Guide. For those who were curious, core races are based around "10," but mine are based around "38."

 

[Systole]

I agree that balance is the most important thing. If your humans get that +2/+2/+2/+2/+2/+4, that's fine, but it's not really relevant to whether goblins as-published are in the same ballpark as halflings as-published. I don't think they are.

As to whether two -2's compensate for a +4, my point was that strength is already half-irrelevant to a dex-based character due to Weapon Finesse, and charisma is pretty irrelevant, period. They don't really matter that much.

I'll take a look at that guide, though. I skimmed it, and it looks better already than some published products I've seen.

 

[frankthedm]

Throw in darkvision and a 30' move, and you have a rogue that blows any core-race-based rogue out of the water.

Yes, but that IS covered already. If a PC monster is causing a problem like you show, the rules for playing monsters clearly calls out the character is then to be modified, fixing the problem.

GMs should carefully consider any monster PCs in their groups. Some creatures are simply not suitable for play as PCs, due to their powers or role in the game. As monster characters progress, GMs should closely monitor whether such characters are disruptive or abusive to the rules and modify them as needed to improve play.

The rules for playing monster expressly calls for nerfing them as soon as they cause trouble. If a DM thinks a player will react badly to the clearly stated rules for playing a Monstrous PC, then not allowing the Bestiary as a book of playable races might be for the best.

 

[Systole]

Yes, but that IS covered already. If a PC monster is causing a problem like you show, the rules for playing monsters clearly calls out the character is then to be modified, fixing the problem.

The rules for playing monster expressly calls for nerfing them as soon as they cause trouble. If a DM thinks a player will react badly to the clearly stated rules for playing a Monstrous PC, then not allowing the Bestiary as a book of playable races might be for the best.

If the race had gotten to level 8 or 12 or 17 and you started to have problems, I'd be fine. But goblins are a race that you need to nerf starting at level one. They're clearly unbalanced. I don't think adding the caveats that (a) Bestiary races are optional and that (b) Bestiary races might need a rebalance somewhere along the way changes the fact that goblin design is extremely sloppy from the outset.

Look at it this way: I can buy a decent, reliable car (a core race) or I can buy a fast, sporty car that I understand may have some design problems somewhere during its lifetime (a Bestiary race). If I buy the sporty car, and all the wheels fall off as soon as I leave the parking lot, we've certainly established that it has some design problems. Furthermore, we've also established that those are some pretty severe design problems that probably should have been cleared up before the sporty car was ever offered for sale.

Like I said, overall I'm very happy with Paizo, but I think they did a bad job here. To me, goblins are so obviously broken that they shouldn't even be an option.

 

[Crothian]

because it allows for a completely munchkinned character.

I don't think it's Paizo's job to protect us from players that munchkin out characters. As a DM I like to have options for characters and I can easily say no to a player if they go to far. I can also easily choose to not have people that abuse the system in my game.

 

[Walking Dad]

DMs can always houserule away faults in the rules...

About unbalanced races:

The aasimar is way stronger as the tiefling. And has a better image in a GOOD (as in not-EVIL) campaign.

 

[Glade Riven]

Goblins have social issues on top of mechanical ones. Most settings have them listed as "kill on site" (not all, but Iron Kingdom's has their own stats for gobbers that would need to be adjusted for Pathfinder). Dealing with that should be punishment enough for playing a goblin.

 

[GrayLinnorm]

Are the creatures from the Bonus Bestiary the only Tome of Horrors creatures that will be in Pathfinder Bestiary 3?

I'm looking forward to this!

 

[Shemeska]

I demand a way to play a faerie dragon PC. Or else Paizo is dead to me! Dead to me!