D&D 5E Bladesinger - a criticism of its design

[clearstream]

No, I said the champion still dies alongside the bladesinger, not that the bladesinger was an effective rank. With a 20% chance of death in 2 rounds tanking a CR4, that's not an effective tank. The averaging out of crit damage into the general DOR calculations you (and I) used completely ignores the fact that a crit from that creature kills the bladesinger outright. If you redo the longevity calculations adding in the insta-gib of the crit, the bladesinger chance of survival drops precipitously, and approaches 0 over 10 rounds.

That's not true, we showed that a crit from many creatures appropriate for level doesn't kill a bladesinger outright.

 

[DwynnsPlace]

Bladesinger has been out for over 20 years. New Mods to the class or subclass have been in discussions for years. When Bladesingers Melee, quess who is not casting AOE or direct damage spells to help the party. Yea, Bladesinger character has melee ability that is unique but his limited health makes him vulnerable and Indirect, accidental, AOE damage can easily take him out. Any class that wants to buy Armor proficiency can do so and be as effective as a cleric in plate, all depends on the character concept, design and development with the DM. Getting a future prospect bladesinger past 1st level, now that would really need to be looked at.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Did I miss something, because the CR 4 I the example you posted does it. 15 average damage per attack, of that 3 is ability, so a crit would be 27 damage. Level 4 bladesinger with 14 CON has 6+15 hitpoints (max first and then average after) or 21 hp.

Dead to taking all hp in one go.

Level 5 bladesinger has 5 more for 26 hp.

Dead to taking all hp in one go.

Heck, give that level 4 bladesinger max hp.

Dead to taking all hp in one go.

And monster damage according to the CR charts goes up faster than wizard hp, so this pattern holds when levelling.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Did I miss something, because the CR 4 I the example you posted does it. 15 average damage per attack, of that 3 is ability, so a crit would be 27 damage. Level 4 bladesinger with 14 CON has 6+15 hitpoints (max first and then average after) or 21 hp.

Dead to taking all hp in one go.

Level 5 bladesinger has 5 more for 26 hp.

Dead to taking all hp in one go.

Heck, give that level 4 bladesinger max hp.

Dead to taking all hp in one go.

And monster damage according to the CR charts goes up faster than wizard hp, so this pattern holds when levelling.

Don't you have to go all the way to negative max HP in order to die outright in a single attack?

 

[clearstream]

Did I miss something, because the CR 4 I the example you posted does it. 15 average damage per attack, of that 3 is ability, so a crit would be 27 damage. Level 4 bladesinger with 14 CON has 6+15 hitpoints (max first and then average after) or 21 hp.

Dead to taking all hp in one go.

Level 5 bladesinger has 5 more for 26 hp.

Dead to taking all hp in one go.

Heck, give that level 4 bladesinger max hp.

Dead to taking all hp in one go.

And monster damage according to the CR charts goes up faster than wizard hp, so this pattern holds when levelling.

Wasn't that 15 per multiattack? I'll need to search back up-thread and find it. IIRC the beast was rolling 2d8 per attack, so 4d8 is 18+3 = 21 and this wasn't level 4... or was it?

 

[FrogReaver]

Hmm.. so here I was using the standard RPG definition of "tank". It's a character that can take a lot of damage, not dish it out. The idea is something like the tank crowd-controls and soaks the damage, while a "striker" like a Rogue deals damage.

If the big tree could only get the foes to attack it, then yup, it'd be a great tank.

Well you get the concept. Does need a reason not to ignore the tank. Being durable is not the same thing as "tanking". D&d has no aggro mechanics so decent damage must suffice

 

[clearstream]

This is where I am coming to repudiate most poster's abstractions. In the majority of play at the table, these characters are not fighting alone. A single CR 4 foe is taking hits from 3-4 allies: I doubt it lasts 5 rounds even if the BS simply stands there and Dodges. It's true there is a 50% chance of one of those 10 attacks being a critical. The damage taken varies widely as it multiplies only the dice, not flat adds. A critical by a Chuul probably won't kill the BS. One by a Black Ooze will.

What your objection overlooks is that the GWM fighter is more likely to die by far. They die if there is a critical hit, and if there are no critical hits.

That's true, the BS gains 3rd level spells: e.g. Fly and Fireball.

[MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION] quoting myself - saliently.

 

[Ovinomancer]

[MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION] quoting myself - saliently.

You're cherry picking. The DMG lists 27-32 DPR for CR 4. That, even at the low end of 27, kills a bladesinger on a crit.

So, yes, you can find some CR 4 creatures that will not kill a bladesinger, even on a crit, but you're picking those out intentionally -- it's not a valid analysis of expected outcomes over many games/encounters.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Don't you have to go all the way to negative max HP in order to die outright in a single attack?

You're right, and thanks. I had misremembered the rule leaving out the word "remaining." As in, if damage takes you to 0 and the damage exceeds your hp max, you die. The actual rule is if the remaining damage exceeds your hp max you die.

 

[clearstream]

You're cherry picking. The DMG lists 27-32 DPR for CR 4. That, even at the low end of 27, kills a bladesinger on a crit.

So, yes, you can find some CR 4 creatures that will not kill a bladesinger, even on a crit, but you're picking those out intentionally -- it's not a valid analysis of expected outcomes over many games/encounters.

I looked at two CR 4 creatures in the MM. I'll check a few more. Maybe Chuul and Black Pudding aren't representative. Dodging, these creatures are getting critical hits in something like one in 400 attacks: you know that, right?