D&D 5E Bladesinger - a criticism of its design

[Ovinomancer]

I looked at two CR 4 creatures in the MM. I'll check a few more. Maybe Chuul and Black Pudding aren't representative. Dodging, these creatures are getting critical hits in something like one in 400 attacks: you know that, right?

Are you looking for CR 4 creatures that are more or less representative of the DMG CR 4 guidelines? Why, when the guidelines are right there and you've already used them in this thread?

And you're now adding dodging to what the bladesinger has to do to survive in melee against CR appropriate creatures? When does the special pleading stop? The AC 18 fighter dodging significantly improves his chances as well and also doesn't die.

I have a high degree of respect with the thoroughness and rigor of your analysis on feats, which is why I'm so stumped as to why you're so strongly resisting this point.

 

[James Gasik]

I think he was referring to "tanking" strategy, ie, park next to monsters and Dodge.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I think he was referring to "tanking" strategy, ie, park next to monsters and Dodge.

I spin that around: if the monsters ran up to you and dodged while that caster monster in the back rained spellfire down on you and the monster archers were turning you into a pincushion, how much attention are you paying to the dodging monster that isn't harming you? Why are the monsters more stupid than you?

If you aren't a threat, you aren't tanking.

 

[James Gasik]

Well unfortunately, while I agree that classic tanking does require you to be a threat, I've witnessed this sort of thing in action. An encounter will be full of weapon-using enemies and one high AC guy will just wade into the thick of it and Dodge. The DM, not wanting to provoke opportunity attacks, will have the enemies keep trying to hit the guy and pretty much fail.

No I don't know why this tactic is ever allowed to work. I played AL games for about a year, and I saw it a lot. First time I played it was a Cleric casting nothing but Healing Word and Spiritual Weapon (well, except for the first turn when he cast Spirit Guardians). The last time I played it was an actual Bladesinger doing it (at least, until someone pointed out, with his stupid AC, he might be better off using Blade Ward).

 

[DwynnsPlace]

Wait lol ............ What was that rule about dodge? How many can he dodge? Ow wait....Something about full dodge and number of actions or attacks remaining.... Can I sing and dodge and attack....wait..... can I cast spells now as I am in the middle of all this distracting Melee and the hits I am shedding with my AC is that distracting? Are all my actions suffering disadvantage due to number of enemy attacks coming at me? Is my party sitting back toasting me and cheering me on as I dance the black spiral dancers final dance of doom? What next will befall this dancing Gypsy of a Bladesinger?

No the Bladesinger is not the problem, it has too many issues and should never be a main "Tank"
BS just is not designed for that. The problem is the DM/GM needs to evaluate the players characters
and before games start have designed challenging scenarios that can make the BS fun to play and
teach the BS player that, while the sub-class is fun and a great party support, it is not in no means
a "Tank" and should never be played as one save in solo games. I cringe at that Idea, as a DM and as a Player.

The Bladesinger sub-class is known to be a "rules lawyer" choice and players who like to "rules lawyer" tend to
be confrontational and can usually interrupt games and cause other players to mis-out on some fun gaming time.

As anyone can see from all the posting on this, the Bladesinger subclass is a great support character and can be
great fun to play. It does represent some creative challenges for new/beginning DMs. If you are a new DM or beginner
DM with a little experience, take time to know the players characters before the game starts.

If a DM can identify and understand his lack of knowledge in a class or subclass, then he or she can elect not to allow
the varient class to play untill the GM/DM is fully knowledgeable on that Sub-class, Kit, or Class.

All the possible variations of actions by an opposing enemy can not be determined by a group of players as the DM's screen
can help you as you roll or not roll the dice behind it. (Hint-Hint)

We are beating a dead horse here.
~DWYNN~

 

[Ovinomancer]

Well. That happened.

 

[clearstream]

Are you looking for CR 4 creatures that are more or less representative of the DMG CR 4 guidelines? Why, when the guidelines are right there and you've already used them in this thread?

And you're now adding dodging to what the bladesinger has to do to survive in melee against CR appropriate creatures? When does the special pleading stop? The AC 18 fighter dodging significantly improves his chances as well and also doesn't die.

I have a high degree of respect with the thoroughness and rigor of your analysis on feats, which is why I'm so stumped as to why you're so strongly resisting this point.

It wasn't my intention to cherry-pick (and thank you for calling that out), but let us get clear on the situation that you are describing as okay -

Level 4 Bladesinger solo tanks a CR 4 creature - the strongest foe they should be facing and at 1100 XP twice their deadly encounter threshold of 500 XP
Level 4 Champion solo tanks a similar creature

Every combat in which this occurs, the Champion very likely goes down, dying.
One in two combats in which this occurs, the Bladesinger takes a critical and goes down, dying.

I mean to say WTF? How is a Wizard going toe-to-toe in melee against a creature whose CR is twice their deadly threshold, and falling half as often as the heavily armoured, shielded, defense fighting style Champion!?

 

[cbwjm]

Seems fine to me. The bladesinger is sacrificing class abilities boosting their magical prowess for melee combat capability, that is literally the point of the subclass, the ability to contribute in melee to get a feel for the old fighter/mage kit or prestige class.

 

[Ovinomancer]

It wasn't my intention to cherry-pick (and thank you for calling that out), but let us get clear on the situation that you are describing as okay -

Level 4 Bladesinger solo tanks a CR 4 creature - the strongest foe they should be facing and at 1100 XP twice their deadly encounter threshold of 500 XP
Level 4 Champion solo tanks a similar creature

Every combat in which this occurs, the Champion very likely goes down, dying.
One in two combats in which this occurs, the Bladesinger takes a critical and goes down, dying.

I mean to say WTF? How is a Wizard going toe-to-toe in melee against a creature whose CR is twice their deadly threshold, and falling half as often as the heavily armoured, shielded, defense fighting style Champion!?

Whoa, you're mixing scenarios, here. Either the champ and the singer are solo tanking, in which case your encounter threshold math holds up, or they're tanking for a group, in which case the CR 4 is an medium encounter.

In the first case, they both die before they can kill the beast, but the champion gets real close to winning. A slight edge like a +1 weapon will see the champion prevail more often than not (these comparisons are all statistical averages).

In the second, the champ doesn't die because the fight lasts two rounds. The BS has a 20% chance of death.

The bladesinger is a glass shield. Looks tough, and is, right up until you actually hit her.

 

[clearstream]

Whoa, you're mixing scenarios, here. Either the champ and the singer are solo tanking, in which case your encounter threshold math holds up, or they're tanking for a group, in which case the CR 4 is an medium encounter.

In the first case, they both die before they can kill the beast, but the champion gets real close to winning. A slight edge like a +1 weapon will see the champion prevail more often than not (these comparisons are all statistical averages).

In the second, the champ doesn't die because the fight lasts two rounds. The BS has a 20% chance of death.

The bladesinger is a glass shield. Looks tough, and is, right up until you actually hit her.

It's the scenario we discussed. They are - "solo tanking" - meaning they are the only character doing the tanking. While allies deal damage.

At 4th level the Bladesinger can also trivialise many foes by levitating them and getting to work with a hand crossbow, but let's ignore that for now. Oh, we also discovered they're pretty good at melting mobs (multiple lower CR foes) with Burning Hands. Also, ignored. Because somehow tanking better than the most defensive fighter while still having all that in the bank doesn't count... right?

The glass shield claim makes no sense, when Champion is dying twice to Bladesinger's once.