Blurring the lines between spells and rituals

[Kobold Avenger]

I think the guideline should be that any spell that took more than 1 round to cast should be a ritual.

Spells that really don't have a combat use but could have been cast in 1 round should be spell or ritual.

And all classes should have the ability to cast rituals dependent on having the right class ability or feat. This is because I felt it was disappointing to have some neat spells on the Bard list like Phantom Steed or Modify Memory, but never actually using them because they weren't practical to have out of the limited number of spells known for spell slots, until possibly long after having spells known of that level.

 

[Zustiur]

No. No. NO. NOOOO!

So, erm, why is the wizard using sleep out of combat as a ritual?

It's about having options. Why restrict phantom steed to being a ritual? It's useful for getting you out of combat, not just for when you've got time to cast a ritual. Sometimes you want to cast it quickly and other times you don't. Even with sleep, there are times where casting it quickly isn't important. Say you have an injured horse. We don't have tranquilizers, so the wizard casts sleep as a ritual thus allowing the characters to approach the horse safely. Even obvious combat spells like magic missile have uses outside of combat where casting quickly isn't important but conserving resources (spell slots) might be.


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[Dannyalcatraz]

So, erm, why is the wizard using sleep out of combat as a ritual?

The Ritual form of Sleep would be more powerful then the spell form. Perhaps with greater range (possibly not requiring LoS), a longer duration (days, weeks, years?), a bigger AoE (yards, miles?), or something else.

So, for any kind of mystical effect...

Cantrips/Orisons: super fast but with very minor effects. The Sleep cantrip dazes.

Spells: fast, with some meaningful effects. The Sleep spell works as is already known.

Rituals: very slow but very powerful effects. The Sleep ritual does things you see in myth & legend, like put a single target like Sleeping Beauty to sleep for decades, or a city to sleep for a day.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Even obvious combat spells like magic missile have uses outside of combat where casting quickly isn't important but conserving resources (spell slots) might be.

A Ritual version of MM might provide an effect similar to some of he Reserve Feats or ACFs of 3.5Ed.- an at will Force Missile effect, or a retributive one that smacks whomever strikes the caster. Or something else entirely new, like letting another PC be able to cast the a spell version once in the next 24 hours- useful forma scout, perhaps.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

A Ritual version of MM might provide an effect similar to some of he Reserve Feats or ACFs of 3.5Ed.- an at will Force Missile effect, or a retributive one that smacks whomever strikes the caster. Or something else entirely new, like letting another PC be able to cast the a spell version once in the next 24 hours- useful forma scout, perhaps.

I agree. I think Rituals can add a whole new dimension to how spells and magic can manifest. In addition, they can provide a temporary effect within a structure that more satisfyingly limits multiple performances of a magical casting, rather than just saying, "because you can't".

In many respects I would prefer spells to be at-will and limited by a casting check (where individual spells have individual DCs); and where rituals limit the casting of magic through duration and actual resources/equipment as well as that casting check.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Zustiur]

The Ritual form of Sleep would be more powerful then the spell form. Perhaps with greater range (possibly not requiring LoS), a longer duration (days, weeks, years?), a bigger AoE (yards, miles?), or something else.

Wow, despite working with the same idea, you and I are on extremely different tracks. While I think it would be awesome to enable use of the sleep spells as per Snow White or Sleeping Beauty, that was not my goal. I'm actually looking into this idea as a way of improving balance between the classes.

One of the often commented differences between fighters and wizards is that fighters can do their thing all day while wizards peak early and then stop being useful. Another point is that wizard PCs often forgo utility spells to take that extra fireball or magic missile.

My system should help to alleviate that by allowing wizards to provide meaningful help during the 'exploration' phase of the game, without reducing their effectiveness in combat. At the same time, I'm not separating spells into different categories, because a vast percentage of spells can be used in either situation if thought about in the right way.

While I do appreciate the desire to have spells scaling from 0th to 9th level whilst being the same spell, that runs the risk of killing too many sacred cows for my liking. Having to wait until 5th level before you get fireball is part of being a DnD wizard to my mind. Being able to cast a mini fireball at level 1 wouldn't feel right to me. I could happily shift the level of fireball, but I don't want to create 9 or 10 different versions.

I think having rituals as a more powerful form of the spell would bring up a whole truck load of balance issues. Look at the usual complaint about knock making rogues useless, then imagine a more powerful version. I'm not saying your idea is bad, or that it would be impossible to balance, just that it's not where I was heading.

No, my goal is quite the opposite. Leave the power of individual spells alone, but change the way they are accessed. Some may need their levels altered (this is true of any edition revision), but the premise here is to reduce the number of 'spells per day' that the wizard can throw out in combat, while not reducing their abilities outside of combat. It's designed to leave the utility spells in the game, while giving some of the glory back to the rogue.

This system leaves room for other rituals to remain in the game. Say there are some spells that go 'beyond levels'. Spells which you simply can't master because they're just too big. These are exactly the sorts of spells that evil/mad wizards try to cast that the party must stop. These are the sorts of spells that can save the kingdom, if only the party can keep the king's wizard safe for long enough. etc. Those ritual spells wouldn't appear in the book as spells at all. They're pure story elements, but now they make more sense in the context of how magic works in general.

I don't have a problem with a few spells becoming 'ritual only' (I referred to Raise Dead this way earlier) but it shouldn't be anywhere near the divide that 4E introduced.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I think having rituals as a more powerful form of the spell would bring up a whole truck load of balance issues. Look at the usual complaint about knock making rogues useless, then imagine a more powerful version. I'm not saying your idea is bad, or that it would be impossible to balance, just that it's not where I was heading.

Well, my sleep example was to illustate the concept.

Part & parcel of what I'm talking about would be shifting the level classifications around. For instance, Knock, as written and complained about, would probably be the ritual form, not the spell form. The spell form would just grant an enormous bonus to someone already skilled. IOW, things that are abusively powerful as currently written might have their level shifted up OR could become the Ritual form of the magic.

As for balance, there's a number of ways to handle it. Rituals take time, of course. They may also be limited to just a few per day (say, one per casting stat bonus?). They could even be hazardous- the more you cast, the more you may attract unwanted attention...

(I've used all of these- and others- very effectively in Fantasy HERO.)

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Well, my sleep example was to illustate the concept.

Part & parcel of what I'm talking about would be shifting the level classifications around. For instance, Knock, as written and complained about, would probably be the ritual form, not the spell form. The spell form would just grant an enormous bonus to someone already skilled. IOW, things that are abusively powerful as currently written might have their level shifted up OR could become the Ritual form of the magic.

As for balance, there's a number of ways to handle it. Rituals take time, of course. They may also be limited to just a few per day (say, one per casting stat bonus?). They could even be hazardous- the more you cast, the more you may attract unwanted attention...

(I've used all of these- and others- very effectively in Fantasy HERO.)

I think Knock presents a very interesting spell to examine this whole idea within the context of character and class dynamics. Imagine all the forms you could see this in:

* At-Will/Cantrip Casting: This is where the caster literally knocks on the door, with the magic attempting to encourage the door to unlock and magically open (looks neat when it works first time). For this to work at such a low/cantrip level, it should only be allowed by the caster and it should magically enhance the caster's normal capacity to unlock things. This enhancing should mean that the Rogue is still superior (particularly getting a minimum of 10 on their roll), but that the wizard would then be the next most capable in the group and capable enough for most things if the party lacks a rogue. The obvious complication for this is that it might take 3 or more goes, by which time whoever is on the other side of the door has become well aware that someone is trying to get in and getting ample opportunity to prepare.

* Vancian Casting: This is the more heavy duty of the spells and it costs a slot in preparation. How do you do this though without treading on the rogue's toes? The obvious way is as Danny Alcatraz suggests. The bonus is perhaps a little bigger and it can now be bestowed upon any target creature, with their hand/paw glowing until the magic is used or fades away (duration ends). The advantage here is a swap of physical resources cost (value of stuff in gp from a ritual) for a vancian resources cost (it impinges upon a wizard's overall casting capacity).

* Ritual Casting: Here is where you can have more than one knock ritual, working in different ways. The important things about rituals are:

- They have a resource cost (requiring cost-significant components and possibly an expensive focus).
- They have a time cost: Rituals take longer than a handful of rounds to cast.
- You have to learn how to do them which requires finding the ritual and then successfully understanding it so it can then be performed. This should be a significant factor.
- Rituals must be performed which requires a check. The DC for this varies and may be quite significant. In addition, some rituals even if they are understood may be botched.

And so two possible knock rituals:

Zustiur's Summoning
1) One knock ritual might be easily learned, have only average cost but be somewhat dangerous (it might be easily botched). It might summon an Imp who is then bargained with to open the portal. The imp might be quite effective at opening even the strangest of portals, particularly ones that might be trapped. Once opened, the Imp is released back from whence it came. A botched ritual might have some of the imagined difficulties when a summoning goes awry.

The Key of Gold
2) Another knock ritual might be challenging to learn and cast, take a good chunk of time, have average cost but require an expensive focus (a key made of gold with an expensive diamond clasped where the key is to be held). This ritual imbues the key with magic. This in turn allows its user/wearer to gain a significant and ongoing bonus if worn to their checks (it may even provide advantage on all checks made with it). The key lasts for 24 hours (or a significant period of time) or until the wearer decides to actually use the key. When using the key in such a way, the portal is opened as if the user had rolled a 20 and if any traps or other devices or magic were attached to the portal, such things would not be set off or work. Whichever way, when the magic's duration wears off, the key becomes dull and inert and unsuitable for the same knock ritual for an extended period of time (from a day to even a week or a month perhaps). This might be dependent upon the quality of the casting of the ritual.

Just some thoughts how you could make this work, keep things balanced and without treading upon the toes of a class specialized in similar pursuits.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

- Rituals must be performed which requires a check. The DC for this varies and may be quite significant. In addition, some rituals even if they are understood may be botched.

Well, you could dredge up that hoary mechanic of variable results eepending on if you succeed by DC + 10+, DC + 5, DC, or fail by DC - 5, etc.

And yes, Nat 20s and 1s should really matter on Ritual DC checks. In the case of a knock ritual, perhaps a 1 fuses the mechanism, ruining the lock. The only way through is breaking or removing the door...while a Nat 20 means the door is always open to the caster.

Also, since the base assumption of Ritual casting is that you are taking your time, there would be not "Taking 10" or 20. Instead, there'd be a rule penalizing the caster for trying to rush a ritual.

 

[steenan]

I really like what I'm seeing in this thread. Great ideas, guys!

The cantrip/spell/ritual offers a lot of flexibility in giving each spellcasting class a different "feel". Wizards may be the default, with limited slots and ritual casting. Clerics may also have access to rituals, but cast spells spontaneously from their domain list. Sorcerer may have no access to rituals at all (they would have to take a feat), while bards use rituals and cantrips, but no spells.

In cantrips, I'd avoid giving bonuses, and even rolls. They should be as simple to use as possible.
Continuing the Knock example, I'd make the cantrip version automatically open locks to a fixed difficulty (eg. what a equal-level, average-dexterity rogue gets by taking 10) and fail against harder ones. This way, a wizard is never stopped by a poor lock, but a rogue is a little better in every case, and is able to defeat high quality locks that the cantrip can't even touch.