Bo9s: Insightful Strike and crits

[gnfnrf]

Spinning off from another thread...

The maneuver Insightful Strike from the Book of Nine Swords interacts with critical hits exactly how?

1.) You deal no additional damage.

2.) You threaten and critical by the weapon's threat range and critical multiplier, using the skill check as the base damage roll.

3.) You threaten and critical 20/x2, using the skill check as the base damage roll.

In my original reading, I thought it was 2, then I moved to 3 as a houserule, but now I'm hearing people play it as

Please provide specific wording interpretations if applicable, since I'm not the DM in the game for which it is now important.

--
gnfnrf

 

[Zurai]

I see no rules reason why the answer is not 2. Weapon damage isn't the only type of thing that can critical: according to the rules, anything that uses an attack roll, including some spells, can crit. Since Insightful Strike still uses an attack roll, it can crit. Since you're still using your weapon to deliver the attack, it uses the weapon's threat range and multiplier.

 

[Patlin]

My swordsage criticalled with an insightfull strike the other day, and I happilly reported the doubled damage. However, since the I've become convinced that I did it wrong. Here's my reasoning:

Insightfull strike causes your damage to be based on a skill check, rather than on any other modifiers that might apply. Doubling damage on a critical hit is an other modifier that might apply. The advantage gained from a critical hit is "overwritten" by the skill check.

 

[Arkhandus]

You still get a critical hit, but you don't double the damage or anything. All of your damage, including multiplied amounts, is replaced by the Concentration check result.

 

[Nifft]

Right. You deal no extra damage on a Critical Hit, though any other (non-damage) effects which might trigger on a Crit can be applied.

I don't know of very many such effects, though. Mindfeeder from XPH, I guess.

Cheers, -- N

 

[chitzk0i]

I don't know of very many such effects, though. Mindfeeder from XPH, I guess.

There are many in the MIC, including Mindfeeder.

 

[evermind]

Unfortunately, "the sage" of WOtC decided to view this differently.

While the BoNS states that extra damage from any maneuvre is not affected /multiplied by critical damage rules, according to the WotC Sage, any maneuvre dealing a straight, fixed amount of damage (such as the White Raven charge maneuvres ) or replacing the normal damage with a new, generic roll do actually get multiplied

for reference : Dragon issue 354, p. 82

"If a maneuver simply deals an amount of damage, rather than adding extra dice to the normal attack's damage, that damage would be multiplied on a successful critical hit. For example, the fire riposte maneuver deals 4D6 points of fire damage, or double that amount on a successful critical (assuming the weapon deals double damage on a critical hit). "

So, as for the OP, if you used a x2 Critical damage weapon, you should deal 2x (D20+concentration skill) damage on a critical hit with it

So , now it is up as to how much you trust the WotC sage.....

 

[Nifft]

"If a maneuver simply deals an amount of damage, rather than adding extra dice to the normal attack's damage, that damage would be multiplied on a successful critical hit. For example, the fire riposte maneuver deals 4D6 points of fire damage, or double that amount on a successful critical (assuming the weapon deals double damage on a critical hit)."

Oh wow.

This shows a lack of understanding. Fire Riposte isn't made with a weapon; it's a Counter that grants you a melee touch attack. It's also not a Strike, and thus isn't covered by the rule on p.43 -- there's no need to override the Strike rules, since melee touch attacks have a 20/x2 crit range anyway.

Not a sage fan, -- N

 

[Zurai]

Unfortunately, "the sage" of WOtC decided to view this differently.

While the BoNS states that extra damage from any maneuvre is not affected /multiplied by critical damage rules, according to the WotC Sage, any maneuvre dealing a straight, fixed amount of damage (such as the White Raven charge maneuvres ) or replacing the normal damage with a new, generic roll do actually get multiplied

I knew there was a reason I thought Strike of Perfect Clarity was multiplied on a crit!

That's how it should be, IMO. There's a standard, PHB rule that flat bonuses are multiplied while dice are not: Bo9S fixed-damage strikes aren't powerful enough for that rule to need overruling.

 

[Jhaelen]

Bo9S fixed-damage strikes aren't powerful enough for that rule to need overruling.

Well, that's your opinion - mine happens to be different
I think they're too powerful if they have a chance to crit.