Bo9s; nonmartial classes and determining initiator level

[calighis]

Lets say I build a warblade1, crusader1, swordsage1 fighter17.
Does this make my effective initiator level 10 and give me access to every single maneuver, boost and stance of every single discipline up to fifth level?
That seems like a very compelling reason to take martial classes early on.

 

[Arkhandus]

It does give you an initiator level of 10 in all three martial adept classes, by 20th-level, but that's not much help if you took them as your first 3 character levels.

You learn specific maneuvers and stances at the time you take a martial adept level; so if you started as a swordsage 1, you might learn Sapphire Nightmare Blade, but nothing higher-level than that. Once you reach 20th-level, you still only have the learned maneuvers of a 1st-level swordsage.

Now, if you took another swordsage level at 20th-level (sws2/wrb1/cru1/ftr16), that last level of swordsage would allow you to learn maneuvers as per a 10th-level swordsage. Of course, you'd only be learning 1 new maneuver and 1 new stance, anyway, and you'd still have to meet maneuver/stance prerequisites.

Copies of the Martial Study and Martial Stance feats could help somewhat, but note that Martial Study can only be taken up to 3 times. And you'd still only have a few mid-level maneuvers or stances known, at best.

 

[Kat']

For most builds it's more than enough... Make a TWF rogue, and as your 6th level pick a level of Swordsage, Assassin's stance, and the Shadow Blade feat. Boom, you're 2d6 sneak attack above rogues of your level, and you add your dex to damage. That's what I'd call an efficient dip.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah, you're best off dipping into adept classes later, if that's what you want. On a related note, somewhat handy to characters with multiple adept classes is the fact that ToB prestige classes that grant maneuver progressions increase your initiator level for all classes you have (or later obtain) at a 1:1 rate.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

For most builds it's more than enough... Make a TWF rogue, and as your 6th level pick a level of Swordsage, Assassin's stance, and the Shadow Blade feat. Boom, you're 2d6 sneak attack above rogues of your level, and you add your dex to damage. That's what I'd call an efficient dip.

You...can't do this. First of all, your first stance from an adept class HAS to be 1st level, always. You could use your general feat, but you're already spending it on Shadow Blade. Further, Assassin's Stance is level 3. You need Initiator Level (IL) 5 for this. At Rogue 5 / Swordsage 1, your IL is 3.

The way I always recommend Rogue dips into Swordsage is Rogue 6 or 8 / Swordsage 2. Preferably Rogue 8, so the 6 maneuvers you initially get can be up to level 3, but if you want in right away, Rogue 6 will do. First level of Swordsage, you nab Island of Blades stance. If you're confident in ability to generate flanks and SA, take Child of Shadow instead. Maneuvers are pretty open, though Cloak of Deception and Distracting Ember for SA is generally good. Sudden Leap isn't bad for escapingafter a full attack. At second Swordsage level, you're grabbing Assassin's Stance. At level 9, Shadow Blade feat is nice for extra damage, not required though. Gloom Razor is also available starting with the level 9 general feat, and is worthwhile to consider.

 

[Kat']

My bad on the IL... thought it was a lvl 2 stance.

First of all, your first stance from an adept class HAS to be 1st level, always.

You sure of that? Do you have the page reference in the BO9S ?

 

[Nadaka]

My bad on the IL... thought it was a lvl 2 stance.



You sure of that? Do you have the page reference in the BO9S ?

The page where it says you get 1 first level stance at first level. Its in the class description for stances for swordsage, crusader, and warblade.

 

[Kat']

Well okay, then you have to dip two levels...

 

[moritheil]

My bad on the IL... thought it was a lvl 2 stance.

You sure of that? Do you have the page reference in the BO9S ?

Page 40, I believe (quoted it from memory in another thread and nobody corrected me.) Your first stance must always be 1st level.