Klaude dOrien said:
.. agree with most of the above posts but I do think Bo9S classes, or specifically Swordsages which I have seen in action, look particularly good compared to the Core classes at level 1 (a bunch of manuevers and weapon focus) and level 5 (3rd level manuever and stance e.g. assasins stance + burning blade + death mark easily =2d6 (greatsword) +4 (Str) +2 (Wis) + 1 (magic)+ 2d6 (sneak) + d6+5 (burning blade) + 6d6 (death mark) = 11d6+12 (assume hit, fails reflex save, no protection vs fire)
....Not really, from my experiences. A Swordsage at 1st-level is a Monk with slightly better AC and skill points, stunning attack and flurry replaced with maneuvers, weapon focus in place of raw unarmed fighting ability and one one stronger save on the Monk's part.
Also, regarding your example: that would be a round-1 trick maybe, but then they'd be out two maneuvers for the rest of the battle and doing more equitable damage each round after that. They'd also have to be flanking or surprising the foe to use Assassin's Stance for any benefit. And the invisibility maneuver would only give them one more round of Assassin's Stance usefulness (sans the Death Mark and Burning Blade additions, though).
BTW: I've seen a twinked ECL 3 Fire Genasi mage do about 5 or 6 dice of damage in one round with a broken spell from the Spell Compendium (using that feat that gives them a single 2nd-level spell per day, until they get to be high enough level to just add it to their normal spells known) that had an absurdly high save DC (somewhere between 19 and 21) for such a low-level spell. After incinerating the 2 hit die gnolls in that blast, he incinerated another batch of gnolls with a Burning Hands that was effectively 3rd or 4th level caster (so 4 dice or so of damage) as a result of his feats and such. There's no telling what this guy would've done once he got enough levels to start hurling Scorching Rays or Fireballs, had the campaign lasted that long.
Swordsages get WF but have no BAB at 1st-level, so they're less accurate than a Fighter. Also fewer HP and some MAD like a Monk (
especially if they want to make good use of more than just a few disciplines; being good at Shadow Hand demands good Dex, being good at Stone Dragon demands Str, being good at Diamond Mind demands Con, their base Swordsage abilities demand good Wisdom, etc.). The lower BAB and the MAD means they're likely to be doing less consistent damage than a Fighter or Barbarian (no use for Power Attack when you're accuracy is mediocre to begin with and your Strength is most likely mediocre as well), even though they may do more damage in a few rounds before the Fighters or Barbarians get the chance to full-attack.
And each maneuver can only be used once per battle, unless the Swordsage spends a full round refreshing that maneuver rather than attacking (or readying a new set of maneuvers as a full round if they spent a feat on Adaptive Style, which is practically required for any Swordsage who means to be effective beyond the first few rounds or half-dozen rounds of battle; depending on how many boosts/counters he/she readies as opposed to strikes).
I've played alongside someone using a Swordsage from 1st to 4th level (sadly, the campaign had to end once we reached 4th, as the DM moved out of the state). He was quite reasonable in abilities. He got his AC to be pretty good by focusing on it, but did only a little more damage than my Halfling Copper-Dragon Shaman (on average; he'd do slightly or moderately more damage in one round, then similar damage to my DS for the rest of the battle, with similar accuracy). My Dragon Shaman was tougher and kept the whole party alive, while his Swordsage was only good at keeping himself alive through good AC. He had more skills and was a bit harder to hit, for sure, but anyone could see that my Dragon Shaman was contributing more to the party's success and
survival.
A Cleric would've been in the same situation as my Dragon Shaman in that regard; more useful to the party as a whole and nearly as effective in melee. I think we were fairly evenly matched in effectiveness, though he was a bit superior in short battles; and Dragon Shamans are a bit weak really, at least for the first few levels (
especially those with Copper Dragons as their totem, as I found out
). Had I been playing a Cleric rather than trying out a newer class for the heck of it, I probably would've been a little more effective. .....Or if I had played a half-orc, Strength-focused Red Dragon Shaman that was devoted to melee power, rather than eventual effectiveness with breath weapons and healing touches.
