Broken spells?: entangle and briar web (DotF)

[Pielorinho]

And today's lesson, kids?

Don't mess with a Druid in the wilderness. You wanna kill a Druid? You send him photographs of bunnies being tortured, and give him a map to your house, in the middle of a square mile of asphalt.

-Hyp.

I agree entirely. Playing a druid, I take second fiddle when we're underground, or in town: the monk/rogue generally rocks harder than anyone in these situations, with the archer closing fast.

But in the wilderness, I've found that I can chew creatures to pieces.

If, as a DM, the druid is shining too much, see if you can intersperse some underground or in-town adventures, to give the other characters a chance to flaunt their strengths.

Daniel

 

[Red Baron]

Briar web is good, but all they have to do is move out of it. That's not to diffficult.

Oh, but experience has demonstrated that it is hard to get out. Most enemies end up being held entirely -- good Ref saves are hard to come by unless you're a monk or a rogue -- and, since I play my NPCs and monsters with the Int they have listed, many end up killing themselves in the briar web trying to work their way free. (Remember we're talking about a low-level party here, and so low-CR monsters with low hp.) Very, very nasty spell.

As for druids shining in the woods, I can buy that. But there are lots of other creatures that ought to shine in the woods, too, and the druid cuts a swath through them like a jacked-up combine...

One other thing: IMC, druids (in fact spellcasters of most any kind) are relatively rare, so unfortunately it's not as easy as "throw a druid back at them" (even though, as I've said, I'm afraid of what would happen if I tried that, anyway).

Anyway, thanks for the feedback, all. Keep it coming.

 

[Crothian]

When our Druid casts Briar's web, the bad guys take some damage as they leave it's radius. It's helpful as it detains them for a round or two. But other then that nothing to great.

 

[Madfox]

You know, my druid player actually thinks entangle stinks. Why?

Becuase it works with the natural undergrowth and hence is only really effective in forrests and areas with a lot of shrubs and/or high grass. Besides the fact that my campaign takes place in high mountains (with little undergrowth of the right material), there are also several other downsides to entangle. There is the downside that the entangle affects everybody getting in the area. It only works in areas with a lot of plant growth, shooting entangled people is hardly an option. They tend to have both cover and concealment. Also entangled people can still act, spellcasting requires a concentration check DC 15 (peanuts at mid- to highlevel) and effective dex might be reduced by if I remember correctly 4. So while entangled the victims can still shoot arrows, though at some extra minusses. Finally, strong creatures can simply rip themselves loose from the entangle.

I have no opinion on bramble. I never have used it, and nor has the druid player asked me if I would allow it. Besides, even the stupidiest person would realize that moving while in an area with thorns the size of daggers is gona hurt.

On a side note: web spell suffers from the same problems as entangle. Instead of plant growth it needs enough objects around to support it (which I admit is a more common situation then with entangle). It offers full concealment for those in the middle. One spark is enough to remove the whole web and it deals only 2d4 damage to those in the web. The downside of this spark bit, is that in dungeons lit by torches it tends to burn away real quick.

 

[Xahn'Tyr]

One spark is enough to remove the whole web

Isn't that just a hold-over concept form 2nd edition? The spell descript in 3rd Ed says:

The strands of a web spell are flammable. A magic flaming
sword can slash them away as easily as a hand brushes away
cobwebs. Any fire;a torch, burning oil, a flaming sword,
etc. can set them alight and burn away 5 square feet in 1
round. All creatures within flaming webs take 2d4 points of
damage from the flames.

So a spark would clear out about 4 cubic inches of web (in orther words, none). If you used a torch, you could clear 5ft per round. It looks to me like the webs burn and shrivel away from an open flame, but there isn't any indication of a full-scale chain reaction that makes the whole thing go "poof" in an instant.


As for Entangle, you can probably bring it back in line just by ruling that it animates nearby growth but does not enlarge it or strengthen it at all. So it really requires strong bushes or trees to be fully effective. Grass, even knee high, just isn't going to have the strength to immobilize someone - maybe slow them down, but not completely anchor them. If someone isn't standing next to a bush, or under the branches of a tree (or over the roots), then I would give them bonuses on their saving throw.

If all of your fights are taking place in the deep woods, with all of the enemies attacking from one direction, and staring more than 20feet away, then yes, the druid will do well with entangle.

 

[Mali]

I have two words:

Dispel Magic

With this spell you can take out the offending entangle or briar spell and let your guys get at the enemy (PC's). Just have an invisible mage handy or someone with someone with a scroll of Dispel Magic, and bang there goes the entangle.
Trust me the shock factor when the PC's see their entangle disappear and the enemy coming towards them at full tilt is well worth it

 

[Madfox]

So a spark would clear out about 4 cubic inches of web (in orther words, none). If you used a torch, you could clear 5ft per round. It looks to me like the webs burn and shrivel away from an open flame, but there isn't any indication of a full-scale chain reaction that makes the whole thing go "poof" in an instant.

Then why mention the 2d4 dmg from burning away the web? After all, damage due to burning oil or a torch are detailed elsewhere. Reading your quote of the spell, I would probably let the web be burned away at 5 ft per turn radiating from the starting point. This would not make it instant, but just slowly but surely. I also would rule that a spark in itself is not enough to lit the web.

 

[Galfridus]

Don't these spells also provide cover? I recall reading them and thinking that the damage would be cool, but the cover provided would make it hard to do anything to the targets until the spell wore off.

That being said, I've seen Entangle used to fairly devastating effect; at least until the party druid was carried off by a dragon.

 

[Artoomis]

You should never nerf a spell (or a character ability, for that matter) merely because you have created a scenario that allows PCs to maximize one of there strengths.

A Druid attacked in the woods? Well, what do you expect - he's supposed to be really effective.

A really well-designed adventuring group will have amix of abiliies so as to have a least one really good thing to do for any secanario. Good for them

Of course, many of things can only be done once or twice a day, so there is really no issue - if a prepared group is attacked only once a day, they should be able to handle it pretty easily. Attack them a second time and see what happens.

 

[melkoriii]

All you need to do is throw some Flying creatures at them. Cant Entangle them and there wouls be meny types of flying creatures in the wilds.

I thought the two things about entangle that were out of preportion were the save DC 20! and that it was 1 MINUTE/ lvl. Both of thoughs should be much less for a 1st lvl spell.

I would change it to DC depending on the undergrowth starting at 11 and ending with like 18. Then I would change the duration to 2 rd/lvl