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BrOSR

Cordwainer Fish

Imp. Int. Scout Svc. (Dishon. Ret.)
Out of curiosity, who was that? If you don’t want to name names, which page of which book?
I'm not GreyOne, but I'm pretty sure they meant a book about Appendix N, not a text named in Appendix N, and I'm pretty sure it's the one specified at uggc://jjj.vfsqo.bet/ptv-ova/gvgyr.ptv?3057122 . (URL rot13d to deny someone even the tiniest drop of google juice.)
 

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el-remmen

Moderator Emeritus
I did a little digging to figure out who @GreyOne was referring to and I immediately regretted it.

The internet doing the work of introducing me to the existence of garbage people since 1995.*




*(It was probably doing it earlier for others but that was when I first had access).
 



Alzrius

The EN World kitten
The other one was by Bebergal which I first heard about on Vintage RPG.
I haven't read Bebergal's book (yet), but my understanding is that it received some criticism for its title/description ("the literary influences that shaped Dungeons & Dragons") and then including stories that weren't in Gary's original appendix in the DMG, essentially asserting that those stories helped shape the game despite a lack of evidence to that effect (and, I think, not including some other stories from the original Appendix N?).

Can anyone who's read the book confirm that?
 

Blue Orange

Gone to Texas
Society in general has changed a lot, some gamers like some other people didn't change with it. If you're nostalgic for the old days, you might want to play older versions of the games too. Doesn't mean everyone who's nostalgic for old games is nostalgic for old societal attitudes. Some people might miss having a full head of hair, and some people might enjoy old-style play--the game's gotten a lot easier, after all.

I bought the Appendix N book on electronic before I knew the whole backstory.

If people have questions and want to avoid giving the guy more money you can ask them.
 
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Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
I haven't read Bebergal's book (yet), but my understanding is that it received some criticism for its title/description ("the literary influences that shaped Dungeons & Dragons") and then including stories that weren't in Gary's original appendix in the DMG, essentially asserting that those stories helped shape the game despite a lack of evidence to that effect (and, I think, not including some other stories from the original Appendix N?).

Can anyone who's read the book confirm that?
I have it, have read it, and can confirm. The criticisms are to my view largely baseless or at least misguided. And oft made in bad faith, like Jeffro's.

Bebergal gave a good interview on Wandering DMs (no doubt among other places) explaining his editorial selections. In short, from what I can recall, he made his selections primarily from two suggested reading lists- the original Appendix N from the 1979 AD&D DMG, and the list in 1981's Moldvay Basic. He also admits in his own comments IN the book that his own taste and influences played some role.

The original Appendix N is MOSTLY comprised of full length novels. A lot of it wouldn't fit or make sense to put in a compilation of short stories. I think he did excerpt ONE longer novel in the collection, but he wanted to avoid excerpts of longer works in general. Some authors/estates were just too expensive or uncooperative for him to get the stories he wanted, even though he wanted to and tried.

The authors & stories he chose, if I recall correctly, DO all pre-date D&D*. While Gary not mentioning a given story or author in the official original Appendix N may mean that to some folks, it doesn't really count, Gary himself expanded on the list and recommended other stuff he would have, in retrospect, included. Both in his 2000s-era Q&A threads online, and in at least one of his editorials in Dragon, as I recall.

There are also other stories in general which IMO and other analysis has indicated are certainly or very likely influences on D&D, which are not specifically mentioned in Appendix N. In particular some by authors who ARE mentioned in the original appendix N, which definitely look like uncredited influences on D&D. For two examples off the top of my head, I think of what appear to me to be fairly clear antecedents of the D&D Bard- Poul Anderson's Cappen Varra (first appearance, The Valour of Cappen Varra, 1957) and Manley Wade Wellman's Silver John the Balladeer (first appearance 1963). Both authors are referenced in Appendix N but these stories aren't. The original Appendix N definitely isn't an exhaustive list of inspirational fiction, and Gary said so himself.

I have at least a LITTLE sympathy for folks who feel like "Appendix N" is a misnomer when the collection draws both from authors in the actual Appendix N and the list in Moldvay Basic, but given the role Moldvay Basic serves in the history and evolution of D&D, cleaning up and fixing oversights from the original game, with Moldvay's remarkably competent and skilled editorial hand (which Gary and Tim must have and should have envied, considering their own sketchy efforts) filling in gaps and missing pieces, I don't think touching on his supplementary/expanded reading list is at all inappropriate.

(*Now that I'm looking, I am reminded that Bebergal's book includes Straggler from Atlantis, another Manley Wade Wellman story of another Bard, but I think only dating back to 1975. This doesn't predate OD&D, though it certainly predates AD&D and IIRC Gary specifically includes the short story collection it was from in Appendix N, though he doesn't name that specific story).
 
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Berbegal's book is great. The other one is published by Castalia House, which is all I needed to know.

Ah, yeah, that dipstick.

The OTHER Appendix N book, Peter Bebergal's story compilation, is quite good and I recommend it.

BrOSR is a new thing to me. I'm seeing lots of dictums and "this is true D&D" talk that are setting off some warning bells (or should I say "tocsins," to add some suitably Gygaxian flair).
 

GreyOne

Explorer
Berbegal's book is great. The other one is published by Castalia House, which is all I needed to know.



BrOSR is a new thing to me. I'm seeing lots of dictums and "this is true D&D" talk that are setting off some warning bells (or should I say "tocsins," to add some suitably Gygaxian flair).
Castalia House?
 


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