D&D 5E Buffing the Champion Fighter

[Hawk Diesel]

Bonus action trips and pushes compete with TWFing in the action economy.

Forgot to address this earlier. But I guess I'm confused as to why TWF is such a big focus for Champion fighters in this discussion.

I, too, don't like the idea of the Champion taking something from a feat, especially a feat I could see them taking. But, the Swashbuckler takes something from Mobile, so it's not unheard of.

The feats do become a bit less useful, but not without value. It is still nice having a boost to Dex Save and a kind of evasion ability. It is also still nice to get the advantage when grappling with the Grappler feat (though that feat has problems of its own).

 

[Yunru]

Why would you add your intelligence modifier to the crit range? That seems to place emphasis away from the fighter's primary attributes.

Or do you meant Initiative modifier to crit range? (which would be equally flawed as that would benefit dex based fighters unfairly, as well as anyone choosing the alert feat).

Because the Fighter has the ASIs that they can boost a third stat and it encourages boosting Int, something oft not done outside of Wizard spellcasters.

 

[droid6689]

I, too, don't like the idea of the Champion taking something from a feat, especially a feat I could see them taking. But, the Swashbuckler takes something from Mobile, so it's not unheard of.

Everybody has discussed giving extra saving throw bonuses (Resilient) or other feat-like abilities (Shield Master). Why not simply take my suggestion and give them an extra ASI?



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[Ahrimon]

Random thought. Since one of the fighters schticks is action surge, what if somewhere in there they were allowed to use a second bonus action a round? Maybe anytime or maybe whenever they use the attack action they are allowed a second bonus action. That would allow TWF fighters to benefit from action surge more and allow some of the feat using styles more oomph. Not that they needed it much.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Random thought. Since one of the fighters schticks is action surge, what if somewhere in there they were allowed to use a second bonus action a round?

I've liked the idea of the fighter getting Extra Attacks to also get extra reactions. Something like "When you use a Reaction to make an attack roll, you do not expend the Reaction until you have made as many attacks with Reactions as you are entitled to make attacks with an Action on your turn."

Extra bonus actions (not expending a bonus action you use to make an attack) might make sense, too, though not just straight-up with TWFing like the 1e UA/2e Cuisinart of Doom.

 

[Xeviat]

Everybody has discussed giving extra saving throw bonuses (Resilient) or other feat-like abilities (Shield Master). Why not simply take my suggestion and give them an extra ASI?



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When? The Champion needs some love at 3rd level, but an ASI then would be too much. 10th? They're at least unique at 10th. They need help earlier. 7th?


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[Quickleaf]

So initially, my proposal for improving the Champion was to add +2 to damage in addition to their expanded crit range. For me, this made sure that the Champion consistently felt the usefulness of their ability, since theoretically even with an expanded crit range you could end up never landing a crit. I also felt that Remarkable Athlete could stack with proficiency. But now, I have a different idea.

I like your idea, but I'll add that in my own analysis of Champion vs. Battlemaster damage, Champion held its own just fine. My numbers are in contrast to [MENTION=57494]Xeviat[/MENTION]'s, likely due to different assumptions. IMO, there's absolutely no need to boost the Champion's damage. Damage-wise, it's well-designed and fine as is.

[SBLOCK=Fun with Maths]
Fighter: Champion vs. Battle Master DPR
Some players assert that Champion is weaker than Battle Master in terms of its damage output. Thus far, having seen both at my table playing up to 6th level, I didn't feel this was true. I ran some numbers, and it cast further doubt on that assertion. They seem practically evenly matched in terms of DPR.

Assume an average of 4 encounters of 4 rounds each (16 rounds of combat total) per day, against a monster of CR equal to the party’s level. Also assume that the fighter can always attack each round (i.e. is in range and isn't paralyzed). Some days will have fewer or more encounters, some encounters will be over in a round while others will last a long time, and most assuredly there will be greater variety of CR and combat scenarios in actual play, but assume it’s a wash in the long-term.

I’m comparing a human fighter wielding a longsword one-handed, no feats, no magic items. Both have the Defense fighting style, but I’ve compared two versions of the 10th level+ Champion, one with bonus Dueling style and the other without. I’m comparing them at levels 5, 11, and 15.

Level 5
Str 18, AC 16 (scale mail, Dex 14), HP 44 (Con 14), longsword (2 attacks) +7 hit, 1d8+4 damage (8.5), 5% critical hit (battlemaster), 10% critical hit (champion), crit 2d8+4 (13)
Battlemaster superiority dice 4d8 (18), added only on hits

vs. CR 5 monster AC 15; 65% chance to hit
Attacks/day = 32
Critical hits (champion, 10%) = 1.6 ≈ 2
Critical hits (battlemaster, 5%) = 0.8 ≈ 1

DPR (champion) = [ (30 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 8.5 avg. damage) + (2 attacks/day are crits * 13 avg. damage) ] / 16 rounds = [ (165.75) + (26) ] / 16 = 11.98 DPR
DPR (battle master) = [ (31 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 8.5 avg. damage) + (1 attack/day is crit * 13 avg. damage) + (18 avg. damage superiority dice) ] / 16 = [ (171.27) + (13) + (18) ] / 16 = 12.64 DPR

Level 11
Str 20, AC 17 (half plate, Dex 14), HP 92 (Con 15), longsword (3 attacks) +9 hit, 1d8+5 damage (9.5) or 1d8+7 (11.5) champion, 5% critical hit (battlemaster), 10% critical hit (champion), crit 2d8+5 (14) or 2d8+7 (16) for champion
Battlemaster superiority dice 5d10 (27.5)

vs. CR 11 monster AC 17; 65% chance to hit
Attacks/day = 42
Critical hits (champion, 10%) = 4.2 ≈ 4
Critical hits (battlemaster, 5%) = 2.1 ≈ 2

DPR (champion, duelist style @10th) = [ (38 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 11.5 avg. damage) + (4 attacks/day are crits * 16 avg. damage) ] / 16 rounds = [ (284.05) + (64) ] / 16 = 21.75 DPR
DPR (champion, no duelist style @10th) = [ (38 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 9.5 avg. damage) + (4 attacks/day are crits * 14 avg. damage) ] / 16 rounds = [ (234.65) + (56) ] / 16 = 18.16 DPR
DPR (battlemaster) = [ (40 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 9.5 avg damage) + (2 attacks/day are crits * 14 avg. damage) + (27.5 avg. damage superiority dice) ] / 16 = [ (247) + (28) + (27.5) ] / 16 = 18.91 DPR

Level 15
Str 20, AC 17 (half plate, Dex 14), HP 128 (Con 16 @ level 12), longsword (3 attacks) +10 hit, 1d8+5 (9.5) damage or 1d8+7 (11.5) champion, 5% critical hit (battlemaster), 15% critical hit (champion), crit 2d8+5 (14) or 2d8+7 (16) for champion
Battlemaster superiority dice 6d10 (and always have 1d10 at the start of combat even when depleted), so if we assume battlemaster spends 3 superiority dice per encounter, then we should add 2 more effective dice given the assumption of net 4 encounters/day. 8d10 (44).

vs. CR 15 monster AC 18; 65% chance to hit
Attacks/day = 42
Critical hits (champion (15%) = 6.3 ≈ 6
Critical hits (battlemaster, 5%) = 2.1 ≈ 2
DPR (champion, duelist style @10th) = [ (36 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 11.5 avg. damage) + (6 attacks/day are crits * 16 avg. damage) ] / 16 = [ (269.1) + (96) ] / 16 = 22.82 DPR
DPR (champion, no duelist style @10th) = [ (36 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 9.5 avg. damage) + (6 attacks/day are crits * 14 avg. damage) ] / 16 = [ (222.3) + (84) ] / 16 = 19.14 DPR
DPR (battlemaster) = [ (40 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 9.5 avg. damage) + (2 attacks/day are crits * 14 avg. damage) + (44 avg. damage superiority dice) ] / 16 = [ (247) + (28) + (44) ] / 16 = 19.94 DPR
[/SBLOCK]

I'm considering at level 3 Improved Combat also allows the Champion fighter to use their bonus action for grapple, disarm, and shove attempts. This is similar to the Rogue's Cunning Action, giving the Champion fighter something to do with their bonus action if they don't use Two-Weapon Fighting.

Level 7 Remarkable Athlete stacks with proficiency.

Then At level 10, in addition to a second fighting style, a Champion adds half proficiency on any saving throws they aren't already proficient in.

Finally, at level 15, Superior Combat includes the following add-on: In addition, whenever you attempt an ability check using Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution, you can treat a d20 roll of 9 or lower as a 10.

I feel like these additions are not necessarily overpowering. It makes the Champion more strategic in greater options with their bonus actions (also synergizes with expanded crit), tougher (in their saves), more athletic (potential for 1.5 proficiency in Athletics/Acrobatics), and more successful in their athletics (by taking 10 with physical skills).

What are people's thoughts?

Not a fan of the bonus action shoving etc, since it marginalises TWF even further and duplicates a significant benefit of the Shield Master feat.

Overall, I think it's a move in the right direction. But what I see you trying to do are shore up flaws of the fighter core class (e.g. it should have better saves, Indomitable kinda sucks, & it should have a feature supporting increased versatility/creativity) using the Champion sub-class. Whether you want to address such issues in a subclass – when they're really issues with the core class – is questionable.

Your tweaks to Remarkable Athlete seem reasonable.

Replicating Reliable Talent might be a bit much. Reliable Talent feels unique to a skill monkey like the rogue. I could see maybe giving Reliable Talent to a certain bard subclass. But to a fighter? I don't know, it feels out of place.

I do agree with Cap'n Kobold, however, that the bonus action proviso to shove is especially questionable for fighters, who seem likely to be using bonus actions for extra attacks. You can have a two-weapon fighting rogue and leave the rogue with a choice between Cunning Action and an extra attack – that sort of choice makes sense for a rogue, who isn't "the best at fighting." However, a fighter IS "the best at fighting", so if you give the class an ability mirroring Cunning Action, I think you want to avoid requiring a bonus action; instead, I'd recommend reigning in the power (e.g. no grapple or disarm) but letting the fighter use it once per round, either during their turn or at the end of another creature's turn.

This gets back to my point about how rules supporting a reactive/adaptive play style lead to supporting a player's creativity in the heat of the game. For me, that's the spirit of an "old school fighter." Let me react with some crazy idea. *Definitely* don't tell me "well, you can't stow your bow, draw two weapons, then attack."

As for replicating a bit of Shield Master by allowing Shove...YMMV...personally, the benefit of a fighter creating more dynamic movement on the battlefield outweighs the cost of stealing some of a feat's thunder. If it's a real issue for you, but you like the idea of the fighter Shoving enemies around wily-nilly, I'd just replace that line of Shield Master with: You can equip a shield as a bonus action, instead of an action.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Overall, I think it's a move in the right direction. But what I see you trying to do are shore up flaws of the fighter core class (e.g. it should have better saves, Indomitable kinda sucks, & it should have a feature supporting increased versatility/creativity) using the Champion sub-class. Whether you want to address such issues in a subclass – when they're really issues with the core class – is questionable.

I myself have considered this as an issue, having made that same argument earlier in the thread as I wondered aloud why we hear so many arguments of BM/EK vs Champion, yet we don't hear the same issues with the various Rogue archetypes despite a similar design philosophy. Perhaps take away a couple of the extra ASIs and place these abilities there? I don't think fighter needs them. Perhaps one can deal with improving the saves, and another could add another action surge?

 

[droid6689]

When? The Champion needs some love at 3rd level, but an ASI then would be too much. 10th? They're at least unique at 10th. They need help earlier. 7th?


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I don't think they need help at 3. They are already good enough at 3 for people to multiclass into it. I would say
7th - Combat Mastert: Gain all fighting styles
10th - Remarkable Athlete: Expertise in Athletics and Acrobatics. Gain one ASI

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[FrogReaver]

Terrible assumptions...

I like your idea, but I'll add that in my own analysis of Champion vs. Battlemaster damage, Champion held its own just fine. My numbers are in contrast to [MENTION=57494]Xeviat[/MENTION]'s, likely due to different assumptions. IMO, there's absolutely no need to boost the Champion's damage. Damage-wise, it's well-designed and fine as is.

[SBLOCK=Fun with Maths]
Fighter: Champion vs. Battle Master DPR
Some players assert that Champion is weaker than Battle Master in terms of its damage output. Thus far, having seen both at my table playing up to 6th level, I didn't feel this was true. I ran some numbers, and it cast further doubt on that assertion. They seem practically evenly matched in terms of DPR.

Assume an average of 4 encounters of 4 rounds each (16 rounds of combat total) per day, against a monster of CR equal to the party’s level. Also assume that the fighter can always attack each round (i.e. is in range and isn't paralyzed). Some days will have fewer or more encounters, some encounters will be over in a round while others will last a long time, and most assuredly there will be greater variety of CR and combat scenarios in actual play, but assume it’s a wash in the long-term.

I’m comparing a human fighter wielding a longsword one-handed, no feats, no magic items. Both have the Defense fighting style, but I’ve compared two versions of the 10th level+ Champion, one with bonus Dueling style and the other without. I’m comparing them at levels 5, 11, and 15.

Level 5
Str 18, AC 16 (scale mail, Dex 14), HP 44 (Con 14), longsword (2 attacks) +7 hit, 1d8+4 damage (8.5), 5% critical hit (battlemaster), 10% critical hit (champion), crit 2d8+4 (13)
Battlemaster superiority dice 4d8 (18), added only on hits

vs. CR 5 monster AC 15; 65% chance to hit
Attacks/day = 32
Critical hits (champion, 10%) = 1.6 ≈ 2
Critical hits (battlemaster, 5%) = 0.8 ≈ 1

DPR (champion) = [ (30 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 8.5 avg. damage) + (2 attacks/day are crits * 13 avg. damage) ] / 16 rounds = [ (165.75) + (26) ] / 16 = 11.98 DPR
DPR (battle master) = [ (31 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 8.5 avg. damage) + (1 attack/day is crit * 13 avg. damage) + (18 avg. damage superiority dice) ] / 16 = [ (171.27) + (13) + (18) ] / 16 = 12.64 DPR

Level 11
Str 20, AC 17 (half plate, Dex 14), HP 92 (Con 15), longsword (3 attacks) +9 hit, 1d8+5 damage (9.5) or 1d8+7 (11.5) champion, 5% critical hit (battlemaster), 10% critical hit (champion), crit 2d8+5 (14) or 2d8+7 (16) for champion
Battlemaster superiority dice 5d10 (27.5)

vs. CR 11 monster AC 17; 65% chance to hit
Attacks/day = 42
Critical hits (champion, 10%) = 4.2 ≈ 4
Critical hits (battlemaster, 5%) = 2.1 ≈ 2

DPR (champion, duelist style @10th) = [ (38 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 11.5 avg. damage) + (4 attacks/day are crits * 16 avg. damage) ] / 16 rounds = [ (284.05) + (64) ] / 16 = 21.75 DPR
DPR (champion, no duelist style @10th) = [ (38 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 9.5 avg. damage) + (4 attacks/day are crits * 14 avg. damage) ] / 16 rounds = [ (234.65) + (56) ] / 16 = 18.16 DPR
DPR (battlemaster) = [ (40 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 9.5 avg damage) + (2 attacks/day are crits * 14 avg. damage) + (27.5 avg. damage superiority dice) ] / 16 = [ (247) + (28) + (27.5) ] / 16 = 18.91 DPR

Level 15
Str 20, AC 17 (half plate, Dex 14), HP 128 (Con 16 @ level 12), longsword (3 attacks) +10 hit, 1d8+5 (9.5) damage or 1d8+7 (11.5) champion, 5% critical hit (battlemaster), 15% critical hit (champion), crit 2d8+5 (14) or 2d8+7 (16) for champion
Battlemaster superiority dice 6d10 (and always have 1d10 at the start of combat even when depleted), so if we assume battlemaster spends 3 superiority dice per encounter, then we should add 2 more effective dice given the assumption of net 4 encounters/day. 8d10 (44).

vs. CR 15 monster AC 18; 65% chance to hit
Attacks/day = 42
Critical hits (champion (15%) = 6.3 ≈ 6
Critical hits (battlemaster, 5%) = 2.1 ≈ 2
DPR (champion, duelist style @10th) = [ (36 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 11.5 avg. damage) + (6 attacks/day are crits * 16 avg. damage) ] / 16 = [ (269.1) + (96) ] / 16 = 22.82 DPR
DPR (champion, no duelist style @10th) = [ (36 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 9.5 avg. damage) + (6 attacks/day are crits * 14 avg. damage) ] / 16 = [ (222.3) + (84) ] / 16 = 19.14 DPR
DPR (battlemaster) = [ (40 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 9.5 avg. damage) + (2 attacks/day are crits * 14 avg. damage) + (44 avg. damage superiority dice) ] / 16 = [ (247) + (28) + (44) ] / 16 = 19.94 DPR
[/SBLOCK]





Overall, I think it's a move in the right direction. But what I see you trying to do are shore up flaws of the fighter core class (e.g. it should have better saves, Indomitable kinda sucks, & it should have a feature supporting increased versatility/creativity) using the Champion sub-class. Whether you want to address such issues in a subclass – when they're really issues with the core class – is questionable.

Your tweaks to Remarkable Athlete seem reasonable.

Replicating Reliable Talent might be a bit much. Reliable Talent feels unique to a skill monkey like the rogue. I could see maybe giving Reliable Talent to a certain bard subclass. But to a fighter? I don't know, it feels out of place.

I do agree with Cap'n Kobold, however, that the bonus action proviso to shove is especially questionable for fighters, who seem likely to be using bonus actions for extra attacks. You can have a two-weapon fighting rogue and leave the rogue with a choice between Cunning Action and an extra attack – that sort of choice makes sense for a rogue, who isn't "the best at fighting." However, a fighter IS "the best at fighting", so if you give the class an ability mirroring Cunning Action, I think you want to avoid requiring a bonus action; instead, I'd recommend reigning in the power (e.g. no grapple or disarm) but letting the fighter use it once per round, either during their turn or at the end of another creature's turn.

This gets back to my point about how rules supporting a reactive/adaptive play style lead to supporting a player's creativity in the heat of the game. For me, that's the spirit of an "old school fighter." Let me react with some crazy idea. *Definitely* don't tell me "well, you can't stow your bow, draw two weapons, then attack."

As for replicating a bit of Shield Master by allowing Shove...YMMV...personally, the benefit of a fighter creating more dynamic movement on the battlefield outweighs the cost of stealing some of a feat's thunder. If it's a real issue for you, but you like the idea of the fighter Shoving enemies around wily-nilly, I'd just replace that line of Shield Master with: You can equip a shield as a bonus action, instead of an action.